Kenshō the first Bhumi?

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Astus
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Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?

Post by Astus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Meido wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:22 am
I meant they are fulfilled within the overall path.
I asked because of what is found in Huangbo's teachings that those who do not find a teacher to instruct them in the sudden path should follow the gradual Majayana of the sutras. It is also said there that the result of three uncountable kalpas and sudden awakening is the same buddhahood. But if such subitism is not accepted, there is only the gradual bodhisattva way.
It's fine to describe this as a different or uncommon approach. Torei describing this:
... None of this applies to our patriarchal school, which surpasses expedient means. ...
But there are all sorts of expedient means in Rinzai Zen, aren't there? On the other hand, every genuine practitioner strives for full awakening, no matter the school. What I gather from what you write is that it's OK to call Zen an instance of Mahayana that conforms to the general progressive way of the bodhisattva path, whereby kensho can be equated with the attainment of faith, as taught by Jinul.
What is the view of kensho?
It is supposed to be the cessasation of views, wouldn't you agree?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

krodha
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Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?

Post by krodha » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:14 pm

Thanks for your insight Meido. You and I are saying the same thing, just coming from two different traditions.

When I say “equipoise” [tib. mnyam bzhag] I mean samadhi infused with prajñā just as you describe. In the system I practice, Dzogchen, the path is likewise considered incomplete until equipoise and post-equipoise, i.e., periods of lapse in samadhi, are seamlessly fused.

The process of which involves, just as you said, departing from and returning to equipoise again and again, until habitual patterns and obscurations are exhausted to a degree that the “view” becomes unfragmented.

Very refreshing to see this process mirrored in the Zen path.

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Meido
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Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?

Post by Meido » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:14 am

krodha wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:14 pm
Thanks for your insight Meido. You and I are saying the same thing, just coming from two different traditions.

When I say “equipoise” [tib. mnyam bzhag] I mean samadhi infused with prajñā just as you describe. In the system I practice, Dzogchen, the path is likewise considered incomplete until equipoise and post-equipoise, i.e., periods of lapse in samadhi, are seamlessly fused.

The process of which involves, just as you said, departing from and returning to equipoise again and again, until habitual patterns and obscurations are exhausted to a degree that the “view” becomes unfragmented.

Very refreshing to see this process mirrored in the Zen path.
Thank you as well. What little I know of Dzogchen I also happen to find very refreshing.

In Rinzai practice, the process of establishing continuity is what is meant by practice of Hokyo Zanmai (jewel mirror samadhi) and Sho Hen Ego Zanmai (alternating samadhi of sameness and difference), taken up well after the initial awakening. Once the meaning of these is penetrated within sanzen (encounter with the teacher), the traditional instruction is to secretly practice them for a minimum of three years in order to establish sufficient continuity within daily activities.

I posted a famous text by Hakuin, which also is the source for koans that serve within the structure of Rinzai practice to point out this crucial stage of training, in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=29215&p=461314#p461314
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

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