Caodong vs. Soto

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Meido
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by Meido » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:12 pm

Valid criticisms to raise. I think the main value of that paper is the perspective it provides regarding Sheng-Yen's experiences and evolving intent...written by his former attendant and an accomplished heir, who was in a position to have intimate knowledge of his thinking.

But yes, as you know there are many popular misunderstandings RE Zen viewed from the outside (e.g. lack of study/anti-intellectualism, koan practice is a fixed "curriculum," conflation of/confusion RE shiho and inka, etc.). And some scholar's attempts to explain aspects of practice are especially misleading. It would be a good topic in its own right.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

Matylda
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by Matylda » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:46 pm

Meido wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:12 pm
Valid criticisms to raise. I think the main value of that paper is the perspective it provides regarding Sheng-Yen's experiences and evolving intent...written by his former attendant and an accomplished heir, who was in a position to have intimate knowledge of his thinking.

But yes, as you know there are many popular misunderstandings RE Zen viewed from the outside (e.g. lack of study/anti-intellectualism, koan practice is a fixed "curriculum," conflation of/confusion RE shiho and inka, etc.). And some scholar's attempts to explain aspects of practice are especially misleading. It would be a good topic in its own right.
I agree with that opinion.. the paper itself is very good presentation of Ven. Sheng Yen and his teaching...
and indeed it would be on the other hand interesting to read some paper clearing misunderstandings concerning Japanese zen etc.

Specially a certain Robert Sharf mentioned in this article is kind of misleading person with his thesis...

By the way concerning Sanbokyodan.. People like Ban Tetsgyu had nothing to do with Sanbokyodan.. after death of Harada Sogaku all his disciples went their own ways and all of them were connected to temples and monasteries of soto school.. neither Harada Roshi had anything to do with Sanbokyodan.. the style of practice at Hosshinji and other temples and many other things were completely different from organization which was in fact built by Yamada Koun roshi.. to connect any of the Hosshinji heirs with Sanbokyodan is wrong in fact... it was and it is organization on its own, have nothing to do with Hosshinji heirs mainstream, including Ban Tetsugyu. Therefore connecting Ven Sheng Yen to sanbokyodan is more than overstated, specially that he never practiced there or with any teacher of sanbokyodan.. Sanbokyodan was idea of Yasutani roshi and main agent was Yamada roshi... it has nothing to do with Chinese master.

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bokki
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by bokki » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 pm

Madam, may i ask?
Have not Daiun Sogaku Harada Roshi,
and his students,
Yasutani, Ban Tetsugyu, and others
made the spine of american zen?
kaplau?
Madam, who cares about scol\ars? let them twirt or twerk
but, the facts u show,,hhmmm...yes , a rereading is now in place
anyway, may i just say a few, not clever tho

the teachers had only 1, 1, i say 1, aim.
soo, if the thing goes all over the place,
needing to be empowered by 14 ways
or needing this or that, 1500 koans and a moral steplader
well, ok, lets play around...

finally, just a big thank you, Madam

Matylda
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by Matylda » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:56 am

bokki wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 pm
Madam, may i ask?
Have not Daiun Sogaku Harada Roshi,
and his students,
Yasutani, Ban Tetsugyu, and others
made the spine of american zen?
kaplau?
Madam, who cares about scol\ars? let them twirt or twerk
but, the facts u show,,hhmmm...yes , a rereading is now in place
anyway, may i just say a few, not clever tho

the teachers had only 1, 1, i say 1, aim.
soo, if the thing goes all over the place,
needing to be empowered by 14 ways
or needing this or that, 1500 koans and a moral steplader
well, ok, lets play around...

finally, just a big thank you, Madam
yes sure the aim was clear... I mentioned only sanbokyodan to which anything related with Harada roshi is at once connected... this is not true. for many heirs of Harada line sanbokyodan was simply alien... for many reasons..
one illustration. If we work together in your company and later on I move away and establish very new business it is kind of seperation right? something completely new, isn't it? I may start small but the one after me really builds this small company a big thing. But later on other knowing me and my history connect persistantly your company to mine... without any logical reason... isn't it strange?

people were misled in fact.. some who did some practice in sanbokyodan and later on went to other Harada's heirs were disappointed or even shocked by definite difference. Befor they read or heard about simple idea Harada-Sanbokyodan. they were told that they practice and belong to Harada line so they thought that others of that line are like sanbokyodan... it was real problem. Even if scientists repeat such nonsense, and it appears again and again in different media, people will be still misled. indeed.. I write about Westerners not about Japanese.. for Japanese it is more clear.

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bokki
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by bokki » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:53 pm

Madam, thank you very very much again.
in a few posts, i have learned so much.
Madam, this thread has made me question a few things,
and your knowledge makes me want ask you.
please excuse me if im out of line.

1. so, the teachings of mahamudra, dzogchen, silent illumination, shikantaza meditation are NOT practiced in china chan now? Chan practise is based on only Ta Hui koan introspection?
2. Chan practice of koan introspection is such, that they converse over tea?
3. what, Madam, is your opinion about this state of affairs?
4. Master Sheng Yen, a really respected teacher, was , for 7 years, a student of Ban Tetsugyu. do you know, or have an opinion, that koans were involved, too, since, as a heir to Daiun, Ban was certainly apt to pass them, those too.
5. Madam,. has not the sambyo kyodan been formed with the outright blessings of Daiun?
6. has Daiun ever distanced himself from Yasutani?
7. how much different are the practices of sambyo kyodan to Haradas way? its a lay organisation, is it not, but based on Daiun teachings???

Madam, thank you very much.

Matylda
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by Matylda » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:37 pm

bokki wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:53 pm
Madam, thank you very very much again.
in a few posts, i have learned so much.
Madam, this thread has made me question a few things,
and your knowledge makes me want ask you.
please excuse me if im out of line.

1. so, the teachings of mahamudra, dzogchen, silent illumination, shikantaza meditation are NOT practiced in china chan now? Chan practise is based on only Ta Hui koan introspection?
2. Chan practice of koan introspection is such, that they converse over tea?
3. what, Madam, is your opinion about this state of affairs?
4. Master Sheng Yen, a really respected teacher, was , for 7 years, a student of Ban Tetsugyu. do you know, or have an opinion, that koans were involved, too, since, as a heir to Daiun, Ban was certainly apt to pass them, those too.
5. Madam,. has not the sambyo kyodan been formed with the outright blessings of Daiun?
6. has Daiun ever distanced himself from Yasutani?
7. how much different are the practices of sambyo kyodan to Haradas way? its a lay organisation, is it not, but based on Daiun teachings???

Madam, thank you very much.
1. no, as far as I know.. friend of mine from America practicedseveral 90 days retreats in a big monastery in northern part of china, when we talked about it he mentioned dzogchen, somehow one of the senior monks told him.. but they did not teach it over there
2. as for dokusan, which is formal and strict in Japan they do not do it.. yes another Chinese friend of mine who completed his training and came to Japan told me, that about koans he talked in his master private room over the tea at the table..
3. actually I do not have any opinion about it, neither good nor bad... I think it is simply the result of evolution of Chinese buddhism, which was since Mongol dynasty few times in very bad shape.. what Chinese did with chan or zen, was best they could do..
4. probably yes... Ban roshi used very extnsively koans just like Harada roshi, his main teacher.
5. this of course I do not know... it was not a big deal for any of Hosshinji heirs... basically he did not stay at sanbookyodan... generally speaking Harada roshi was very interested to teach zen to lay people.. his own temple in Tokyo was build for uni students, not monks actually.. so they had dormitory, very very cheap and zazen from 5am every day, sometimes more intensive zazenkai on sundays. Sanbokyodan I guess was supposed to be for lay people. But Yasutani roshi lived and worked at his own temple Taiheiji, which was formally and still is a soto zen temple.. so he was just a regular priest like all others from Hosshinji
6. never heard about it.. Yasutani roshi was one of most promising successors I guess.. and very very prolific writer, as Harada roshi was.. but Yasutani's books are still used in soto monasteries.. specially his teishos to Shoyoroku..
7 yes of course it has connection with Harada Daiun teachings, but much more with Yamada Koun roshi teachings...
style of practice.. monasteries are strict, you cannot talk during sesshin etc. Sanun zendo in kamakura never had such strict discipline it was for lay people.. some were even returning home for night during sesshin. Unheard in the monastery.

I can give you one example.. concerning Daiun Sogaku roshi way.. Mostly people think that with koan mu and kensho one was doing the rest of koans.. but, sometimes it was just opposite.. I read an article by Daiun roshi published in English he described zen practice from his perspective very well. Someone showed me this article. I think it was in The Hazy Moon of enlightenment, by ZCLA.. I checked now and it is not Haze moon :( but it was from 70 or 80s something from zcla.. Daiun roshi wrote directly that there are many kinds of zen practice and ways one is like passing quickly two or three hundered koans.. he called it approximate zen or something like that.. then gradually another types were more and more demanding and difficult... in another one, prctitioner had to struggle for years and years with for exapmle mu, and lets say after 10 years had some break through, then had to pass koans but not easily.. finally there was the hiighest type according to him, when even kensho was put down by the zen teacher as merely makyo or illusion and one had to work hard 20-30-40 years even, just on one koan like mu or one hand koan... as far as I know Daiun roshi was not fond of approximate zen.. but as far as I heard he could push some students to the exrtreme, and there were very very few who did the last type of practice.. untill full complete realization just with one koan. such things are unheard within sanbokyodan which does very intense koans after approving of kensho... still kensho thing.. in other places there much much less talk about it.. sanbokyodan is into it very much.

Sanbokyodan is known from different approach.. though they talk about kensho they let people much easier to pass koans.. so just imagine some heirs of Daiun roshi who use stricter methods of zen koan practice.. one root - Harada Daiun SOgaku, but completely different approaches.

humble.student
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Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by humble.student » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:39 am

This article by Robert Sharf, who was mentioned earlier, has just been uploaded, and while it is not directly about the thread topic, it contains some incidental material on the Sanbokyodan and related topics. https://www.academia.edu/37431629/Why_B ... ristians_1

Matylda
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Caodong vs. Soto

Post by Matylda » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:23 pm

humble.student wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:39 am
This article by Robert Sharf, who was mentioned earlier, has just been uploaded, and while it is not directly about the thread topic, it contains some incidental material on the Sanbokyodan and related topics. https://www.academia.edu/37431629/Why_B ... ristians_1
Yeah prof Sharf is typical intellectulist who tries to understand zen or buddhism in general, by elaborate meaningless disertation.. most of these thesis are really funny.. one of them is to compare lay zen group of the sanbokydan organization to new japanese realigions or shinko shukyo.. it is by far overstatement, since either he does not understand the japanese term shinko shukyo which is pretty negative, or he undertands and does it by purpose for his own reasons.. it also strange to me that over 90% of bibliogrpaphy contains hisown works, so for scientific work to support ones own thesis by other works written by oneself, is.. well, maybe not comment is best comment.

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