Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by bokki » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:33 pm

Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”

what do you all think?
guo gu
from a brother site..

soo , would you say something, in reply, what do you think????

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:14 pm

I've never seen any response to this other than Yumen trying to shake up the student and get them to go beyond their reified concept of Buddha. Zen teachers have historically complained that people began to idolize "Buddha" and would see the attainment of Buddhahood as something impossible to attain for themselves or others rather than something to be manifested in their lives. Today we do have lots of people traditionally say that the attainment of Buddhahood is impossible for the average person so they don't even try (so they don't manifest the life of the Buddha at all). Lots of koans and stories deal with this.

If there is another understanding then I would like to hear it.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:33 pm
Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”

what do you all think?
guo gu
from a brother site..

soo , would you say something, in reply, what do you think????
I think Kirt is pretty much right.

The catch is that saying this in a Western, mostly protestant-themed religious culture is completely different than saying it in a traditional Buddhist culture. In short, this sort of statement gets used by all sorts of Zen modernists to throw (most of) the baby out with the bathwater, basically. I don't think that was part of the original intention at all, but that's the sentiment you often hear in Western interpretations, when in context there's more nuance to it.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by bokki » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:49 pm

and, no, kirtu, the answer uf Yunmen has nothing, nothing about changing notions about buddha. its a dharmic answer to a serious question. do not underestimate the questioner here, the answer is to a tall monk.

so, johnny, wats your answer? a philosophical answer of Yunmen, , just a play of words to say, ..hey cmon, you r so hung up, ..is that it?

well, thats why Master Yun Mens words a rare, gives you the hives, lets leave them alone..too much for me, too, speaking like this...a FOOL,

Moderator's note: A few consecutive posts have been merged.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 7059
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Astus » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 pm
saying this in a Western ... culture is completely different than saying it in a traditional Buddhist culture
That. At the same time, a large part of Chan literature lost its meaning in China after a hundred or so years, not to mention outside China, as it relies heavily on Chinese culture and language. So the interesting part is how the literature of the past was then turned into practice by Dahui. Consequently we can either play word association, or just project whatever is imagined to be the "true meaning".
bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:33 pm
Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:
a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”
Here's one linguistic FYI from the introduction of The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue (p24): dried turd (ganshijue 乾屎橛; literally, “dried shit in the shape of a short wooden peg,” but sometimes misunderstood as “shitscraping spatula”)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by bokki » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:17 pm

i see, astus, a dry shit... but, then, how does this bring us closer to guo gu question about yunmens answer.,...so, say, its a foolish joke about some thing..ye?..but , then, guo has been known to spring traps...ye..well, i can live with that....but the shit stick, or dry turd...what about that? dont misconstrue buddha? well, ye, as if...

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:41 am

bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:49 pm

so, johnny, wats your answer? a philosophical answer of Yunmen, , just a play of words to say, ..hey cmon, you r so hung up, ..is that it?
It's a real simple answer: if the person reading it is any kind of real practitioner "Buddha" is not ultimately a concept, idea, aspiration, or some some dude called Shakyamuni, and that is what the quote points to. However, I know for a fact that some Western Zen people interpret this kind of thing to mean that basically you can just disregard scripture etc. it's a quote the preferences experiential "answers", and understands that "Buddha" is not bound by time, space, preferences, likes, dislikes, etc.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:08 am

Very similar, if not identical to, CASE 18. TOZAN'S THREE POUNDS OF FLAX
A monk asked Tozan, "What is the Buddha?"
Tozan answered, "Three pounds of flax!"

Mumon's Comment:
Tozan's Zen is like a clam. When the two halves of the shell open, you can see the whole inside. However, now tell me, "What is Tozan's real insides?"
This part of the commentary I find quite interesting!
Just "Three pounds of flax!" pops up,
His words are close, and yet his heart is closer.
Anyone who explains this or that, yes and no,
is himself the man of yes and no.
Being a man of yes and no is not a good thing.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:41 am
"Buddha" is not ultimately a concept
Yet, "Buddha is not a concept", is itself, still just a concept. :lol:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by anjali » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:27 am

bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:33 pm
Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”

what do you all think?
guo gu
from a brother site..

soo , would you say something, in reply, what do you think????
Would I say something? Sure: "something". What do I think? Thoughts. (Couldn't resist having a bit of fun. ;) :cheers: )

As the saying goes, Shit happens. Speaking of which, It is said that a monk once asked Joshu, "To be holy - what is it like?"
Joshu replied, "To dump a mountain of shit on a clean plain."
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:45 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:08 am
Very similar, if not identical to, CASE 18. TOZAN'S THREE POUNDS OF FLAX
A monk asked Tozan, "What is the Buddha?"
Tozan answered, "Three pounds of flax!"

Mumon's Comment:
Tozan's Zen is like a clam. When the two halves of the shell open, you can see the whole inside. However, now tell me, "What is Tozan's real insides?"
This part of the commentary I find quite interesting!
Just "Three pounds of flax!" pops up,
His words are close, and yet his heart is closer.
Anyone who explains this or that, yes and no,
is himself the man of yes and no.
Being a man of yes and no is not a good thing.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:41 am
"Buddha" is not ultimately a concept
Yet, "Buddha is not a concept", is itself, still just a concept. :lol:
Buddha is not a concept being a concept is also a concept, this could go on forever, literally.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:58 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:45 am

this could go on forever, literally.
Yes it could. Until one stops trying to provide explanations, then it doesn't!
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Wayfarer
Global Moderator
Posts: 4168
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:03 am

bokki wrote:would you say something, in reply, what do you think????
'Something which is only useful for stirring up trouble on internet forums. Other than that, no value'.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:45 am

this could go on forever, literally.
Yes it could. Until one stops trying to provide explanations, then it doesn't!
Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 am
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:45 am

this could go on forever, literally.
Yes it could. Until one stops trying to provide explanations, then it doesn't!
Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Zen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 am
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:58 am


Yes it could. Until one stops trying to provide explanations, then it doesn't!
Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Zen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.
Nope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:42 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 am
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 am


Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Zen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.
Nope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".
And others like to play that game just as well apparently.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:42 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 am
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 am


Zen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.
Nope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".
And others like to play that game just as well apparently.
Actually, all I did was answer Bokki's reasonable question as best I could, you're the one who wanted to get clever.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 7059
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Astus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 am

bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:17 pm
the shit stick, or dry turd...what about that?
If you check Yunmen's sayings (Urs App's translation was reprinted this year by Shambhala), it appears that the text uses 'shit' for conceptualisation (§41, §53, §175, §271), while 'dried shit' (§71, §144, §226, §236) is for teaching.

Someone asked, “What is Shakyamuni’s body?”
The Master said, “A dry piece of shit.”

(Yunmen's sayings, §85; T47n1988p550b14-15)

This becomes quite tame then, as it practically repeats the age old saying that the (real) body of the Buddha is the Dharma.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:39 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 am

Actually, all I did was answer Bokki's reasonable question as best I could, you're the one who wanted to get clever.
And all I did was comment on that. I didn't think you would be offended by that but I guess I was wrong...
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8347
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:57 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 am
bokki wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:17 pm
the shit stick, or dry turd...what about that?
If you check Yunmen's sayings (Urs App's translation was reprinted this year by Shambhala), it appears that the text uses 'shit' for conceptualisation (§41, §53, §175, §271), while 'dried shit' (§71, §144, §226, §236) is for teaching.

Someone asked, “What is Shakyamuni’s body?”
The Master said, “A dry piece of shit.”

(Yunmen's sayings, §85; T47n1988p550b14-15)

This becomes quite tame then, as it practically repeats the age old saying that the (real) body of the Buddha is the Dharma.
Wow, never would have guessed it was that simple.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Post Reply

Return to “Zen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests