from a brother site..a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”
what do you all think?
guo gu
soo , would you say something, in reply, what do you think????
from a brother site..a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”
what do you all think?
guo gu
I think Kirt is pretty much right.
That. At the same time, a large part of Chan literature lost its meaning in China after a hundred or so years, not to mention outside China, as it relies heavily on Chinese culture and language. So the interesting part is how the literature of the past was then turned into practice by Dahui. Consequently we can either play word association, or just project whatever is imagined to be the "true meaning".Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 pmsaying this in a Western ... culture is completely different than saying it in a traditional Buddhist culture
Here's one linguistic FYI from the introduction of The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue (p24): dried turd (ganshijue 乾屎橛; literally, “dried shit in the shape of a short wooden peg,” but sometimes misunderstood as “shitscraping spatula”)
It's a real simple answer: if the person reading it is any kind of real practitioner "Buddha" is not ultimately a concept, idea, aspiration, or some some dude called Shakyamuni, and that is what the quote points to. However, I know for a fact that some Western Zen people interpret this kind of thing to mean that basically you can just disregard scripture etc. it's a quote the preferences experiential "answers", and understands that "Buddha" is not bound by time, space, preferences, likes, dislikes, etc.
This part of the commentary I find quite interesting!A monk asked Tozan, "What is the Buddha?"
Tozan answered, "Three pounds of flax!"
Mumon's Comment:
Tozan's Zen is like a clam. When the two halves of the shell open, you can see the whole inside. However, now tell me, "What is Tozan's real insides?"
Being a man of yes and no is not a good thing.Just "Three pounds of flax!" pops up,
His words are close, and yet his heart is closer.
Anyone who explains this or that, yes and no,
is himself the man of yes and no.
Yet, "Buddha is not a concept", is itself, still just a concept.
Would I say something? Sure: "something". What do I think? Thoughts. (Couldn't resist having a bit of fun. )
Buddha is not a concept being a concept is also a concept, this could go on forever, literally.seeker242 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:08 am Very similar, if not identical to, CASE 18. TOZAN'S THREE POUNDS OF FLAX
This part of the commentary I find quite interesting!A monk asked Tozan, "What is the Buddha?"
Tozan answered, "Three pounds of flax!"
Mumon's Comment:
Tozan's Zen is like a clam. When the two halves of the shell open, you can see the whole inside. However, now tell me, "What is Tozan's real insides?"
Being a man of yes and no is not a good thing.Just "Three pounds of flax!" pops up,
His words are close, and yet his heart is closer.
Anyone who explains this or that, yes and no,
is himself the man of yes and no.
Yet, "Buddha is not a concept", is itself, still just a concept.
Yes it could. Until one stops trying to provide explanations, then it doesn't!
'Something which is only useful for stirring up trouble on internet forums. Other than that, no value'.bokki wrote:would you say something, in reply, what do you think????
Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Zen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 amAversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Nope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".seeker242 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 amZen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 amAversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
And others like to play that game just as well apparently.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 amNope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".seeker242 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 amZen masters don't decline conceptual answers to koans because they have aversion, it's because they miss the point.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:07 am
Aversion to concepts doesn't lead to the nonconceptual... it's much like trying to avoid thoughts in meditation.
Actually, all I did was answer Bokki's reasonable question as best I could, you're the one who wanted to get clever.seeker242 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:42 amAnd others like to play that game just as well apparently.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 amNope, Zen masters don't, some practitioners on the other hand love to play "Zen Gotcha".
If you check Yunmen's sayings (Urs App's translation was reprinted this year by Shambhala), it appears that the text uses 'shit' for conceptualisation (§41, §53, §175, §271), while 'dried shit' (§71, §144, §226, §236) is for teaching.
And all I did was comment on that. I didn't think you would be offended by that but I guess I was wrong...Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 am
Actually, all I did was answer Bokki's reasonable question as best I could, you're the one who wanted to get clever.
Wow, never would have guessed it was that simple.Astus wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 amIf you check Yunmen's sayings (Urs App's translation was reprinted this year by Shambhala), it appears that the text uses 'shit' for conceptualisation (§41, §53, §175, §271), while 'dried shit' (§71, §144, §226, §236) is for teaching.
Someone asked, “What is Shakyamuni’s body?”
The Master said, “A dry piece of shit.”
(Yunmen's sayings, §85; T47n1988p550b14-15)
This becomes quite tame then, as it practically repeats the age old saying that the (real) body of the Buddha is the Dharma.