Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend
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Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by LastLegend »

How does Zen understand these things? I’ve heard mind consciousness has to die once in order to pass through the gate of samsara.
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Astus
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:27 pmHow does Zen understand these things?
Since Zen lacks a doctrinal system, it cannot be said it has any specific interpretation. Individual teachers may have.
I’ve heard mind consciousness has to die once in order to pass through the gate of samsara.
It refers to the cessation of manas, the relinquishing of attachment to self. The term "great death" seems to have been used first by Yuanwu Keqin, and it might originate from a Zhaozhou story included in the Blue Cliff Record (case 41), where he comments:

"A man who has died the great death has no Buddhist doctrines and theories, no mysteries and marvels, no gain and loss, no right and wrong, no long and short. When he gets here, he just lets it rest this way. An Ancient said of this, "On the level ground the dead are countless; only one who can pass through the forest of thorns is a good hand." Yet one must pass beyond that Other Side too to begin to attain. Even so, for present day people even to get to this realm is already difficult to achieve."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:27 pmHow does Zen understand these things?
Since Zen lacks a doctrinal system, it cannot be said it has any specific interpretation. Individual teachers may have.
I’ve heard mind consciousness has to die once in order to pass through the gate of samsara.
It refers to the cessation of manas, the relinquishing of attachment to self. The term "great death" seems to have been used first by Yuanwu Keqin, and it might originate from a Zhaozhou story included in the Blue Cliff Record (case 41), where he comments:

"A man who has died the great death has no Buddhist doctrines and theories, no mysteries and marvels, no gain and loss, no right and wrong, no long and short. When he gets here, he just lets it rest this way. An Ancient said of this, "On the level ground the dead are countless; only one who can pass through the forest of thorns is a good hand." Yet one must pass beyond that Other Side too to begin to attain. Even so, for present day people even to get to this realm is already difficult to achieve."
What’s your take on that?
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:58 pmWhat’s your take on that?
It is standard Mahayana (non-abiding nirvana) glazed with dramatic metaphors. Don't grasp things, don't grasp the absence of things, don't make a concept of not grasping anything - thus you have the three gates, or three deaths. In the end, the story is always the same since the four noble truths, craving and clinging perpetuates samsara.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:29 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:58 pmWhat’s your take on that?
It is standard Mahayana (non-abiding nirvana) glazed with dramatic metaphors. Don't grasp things, don't grasp the absence of things, don't make a concept of not grasping anything - thus you have the three gates, or three deaths. In the end, the story is always the same since the four noble truths, craving and clinging perpetuates samsara.
What mind that knows not to grasp? What that mind looks like when it doesn’t grasp?
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:39 pmWhat mind that knows not to grasp? What that mind looks like when it doesn’t grasp?
A mind that has learnt the Dharma knows that grasping ends in suffering. The mind does not have any look in the first place, regardless of the presence or absence of grasping.

Even now there are things and beings one is attached to, and towards everything and everyone else there is no attachment (see: Gandhabhaka Sutta). One should not look for some special state of mind, rather address the cause of pain itself: ignorance. The way emphasised in various Zen texts is to stop grasping at concepts immediately, because it is based on ideas that attachment arises, and the path that ends clinging to thoughts is simply recognising them as unsubstantiated, unreliable, ungraspable.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by bokki »

Sir, may i just ask a little question, please.? so, if one gains nirvana, then..what happens then?...
if, one has no grasping,, will he stop eating?
the way you explain is good,
but,
samsara is a bit of a fool, so, its just ...
what?
samsara is the truth...but, the cessation of grasping, is a folly
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:34 am
The mind does not have any look in the first place, regardless of the presence or absence of grasping.
Ok through eyes, mind that sees?
Even now there are things and beings one is attached to, and towards everything and everyone else there is no attachment (see: Gandhabhaka Sutta). One should not look for some special state of mind, rather address the cause of pain itself: ignorance. The way emphasised in various Zen texts is to stop grasping at concepts immediately, because it is based on ideas that attachment arises, and the path that ends clinging to thoughts is simply recognising them as unsubstantiated, unreliable, ungraspable.
I don’t think that is Zen. Stop grasping or grasping is still grasping to one end. Still discriminating mind.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:36 pmOk through eyes, mind that sees?
Better not assume mind to be an actual agent. Rather follow the classic teaching: as a result of contact between the eye and visible object visual consciousness arises.
I don’t think that is Zen. Stop grasping or grasping is still grasping to one end. Still discriminating mind.
You can continue that indefinitely, like not discriminating and discriminating is still grasping, etc.

"The essence of the Way is detachment. And the goal of those who practice is freedom from appearances."
(Bodhidharma, in Wake-up Sermon, tr Red Pine, p 47)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:15 pm

Better not assume mind to be an actual agent. Rather follow the classic teaching: as a result of contact between the eye and visible object visual consciousness arises.
Okay. What is making this statement if not discriminating mind?

You can continue that indefinitely, like not discriminating and discriminating is still grasping, etc.
Maybe if the discriminating mind is not seen directly at its purest state.
"The essence of the Way is detachment. And the goal of those who practice is freedom from appearances."
(Bodhidharma, in Wake-up Sermon, tr Red Pine, p 47)
Yes this is why we are getting to very bottom of this.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:29 pmOkay. What is making this statement if not discriminating mind?
Discrimination is quite essential on the path. After all, it is only wisdom that can ultimately defeat ignorance.

"The childish are attached to forms;
The moderate attains detachment;
By knowing the nature of forms,
Those of supreme intellect are free."

(Nagarjuna: Yuktisastika, v 55, tr Thupten Jinpa)

"To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:17 pm

Discrimination is quite essential on the path. After all, it is only wisdom that can ultimately defeat ignorance.


Ok the discrimating consciousness is not clean, so it cannot be fully called wisdom as long as there is one end created by discrimating consciousness to lean on. It’s actually ignorance or attachment of self. The Bodhisattva’s discriminating consciousness has once dissolved and they return to the triple worlds for the sake of sentient beings, their consciousness is called wisdom. Ours is not fully wisdom.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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All practice uses discriminating consciousness, though discriminating consciousness can be directly experienced at its ‘pure’ state. Koans, Suragama Sutra, and buffalo watching practice can all lead to that state. But even at that state it’s not clean. And that state is what Dogzchen fuss is about 😉.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:48 pmOk the discrimating consciousness is not clean, so it cannot be fully called wisdom as long as there is one end created by discrimating consciousness to lean on. It’s actually ignorance or attachment of self.
Discrimination is part of the path, it is what takes one to the result. Exactly because one is not yet free from grasping one has to use correct discrimination.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:23 pm

Discrimination is part of the path, it is what takes one to the result. Exactly because one is not yet free from grasping one has to use correct discrimination.
Sure, but it’s the very thing that needs to be dessolved at the end. In its ‘pure’ state by itself is easy mistaken for realizing Buddha nature. This is often the case for practitioners.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:53 pmSure, but it’s the very thing that needs to be dessolved at the end. In its ‘pure’ state by itself is easy mistaken for realizing Buddha nature. This is often the case for practitioners.
If there is correct discrimination, there is no mistake, and necessarily eliminates even the clinging to discrimination.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:12 pm
If there is correct discrimination, there is no mistake, and necessarily eliminates even the clinging to discrimination.
Yes, if that falls under wisdom. No, by discrimination, there is attachment which there is self. If the fence of samsara is that easy to cross, then we would not be discussing dharma. That layer of discriminating consciousness has been created and sustained over many past life.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:27 pmYes, if that falls under wisdom. No, by discrimination, there is attachment which there is self.
If wisdom is already without attachment, then it cannot lead to freedom from attachment, only discrimination can. But if you deny that discrimination can lead to freedom, since we are left without any means, it is literally impossible to attain liberation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:43 pm

If wisdom is already without attachment, then it cannot lead to freedom from attachment, only discrimination can.
Wisdom cannot be a thought (with intention) created by discriminating consciousness.
But if you deny that discrimination can lead to freedom, since we are left without any means, it is literally impossible to attain liberation.
😄 I was told that consciousness changes constantly and because of that there is an open gap to enter great samadhi that’s through meditation practice.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:58 pmWisdom cannot be a thought (with intention) created by discriminating consciousness.
Where does wisdom come from?
I was told that consciousness changes constantly and because of that there is an open gap to enter great samadhi that’s through meditation practice.
A gap between two moments of consciousness? In that case that gap is unconsciousness, hence no mental activity can happen.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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