Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by LastLegend »

bokki wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:55 am Sir, may i just ask a little question, please.? so, if one gains nirvana, then..what happens then?...
if, one has no grasping,, will he stop eating?
the way you explain is good,
but,
samsara is a bit of a fool, so, its just ...
what?
samsara is the truth...but, the cessation of grasping, is a folly

You asked me or Astus. If you asked me, the answer is I have not reached Nirvana.

But to answer you to my knowledge, when a Bodhisattva manifests in our world they do what we do but they don’t suffer mentally like we do. They have bodily pain but they don’t arise additional mental suffering.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:45 am
Where does wisdom come from?
Okay. At the state of ‘pure’ discriminating consciousness, you can stand witness to your unborn nature and that is non-discriminating knowing nature. Witnessing is not the same as realizing because of the very recognizition and distinguishing that nature itself is a product of discriminating consciousness. But at that mixed state (of recognizing nature and still being fabricated by discriminating consciousness), if you are able to sustain without arising discriminating intention or mental creation, that is wisdom.

A gap between two moments of consciousness? In that case that gap is unconsciousness, hence no mental activity can happen.
I was told that the practice is consciousness knowing itself until it dessolves which mean there is no subject and object remaining. The moment of great death.
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Astus
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:13 amAt the state of ‘pure’ discriminating consciousness, you can stand witness to your unborn nature and that is non-discriminating knowing nature.
Discrimination is the ability to tell the difference between things, it is perception, recognition. Or there has to be a difference between discrimination and perception, where discrimination is perception distorted by false preconceptions, like the idea of self. If discrimination is defined that way, then for correct perception to happen one must eliminate the mistaken ideas, hence the need for study (sruta), reflection (cinta), and cultivation (bhavana) that establishes correct concepts and involves investigating appearances (dharmavicaya), in other words: insight (vipasyana).
Witnessing is not the same as realizing because of the very recognizition and distinguishing that nature itself is a product of discriminating consciousness. But at that mixed state (of recognizing nature and still being fabricated by discriminating consciousness), if you are able to sustain without arising discriminating intention or mental creation, that is wisdom.
Here it seems no difference between discrimination and perception is made, but still seems that for some reason discrimination/perception eventually has to go away. But if that were to happen, consciousness could not actually function in any meaningful way. That likely means taking a blank mind as the ultimate.

I was told that the practice is consciousness knowing itself until it dessolves which mean there is no subject and object remaining. The moment of great death.
The elimination of subject and object in Yogacara is the result of arriving at the correct view of consciousness only through conceptual effort. What does "consciousness knowing itself" means in your interpretation? How one knows one's mind, with what method?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:21 am

Discrimination is the ability to tell the difference between things, it is perception, recognition. Or there has to be a difference between discrimination and perception, where discrimination is perception distorted by false preconceptions, like the idea of self. If discrimination is defined that way, then for correct perception to happen one must eliminate the mistaken ideas, hence the need for study (sruta), reflection (cinta), and cultivation (bhavana) that establishes correct concepts and involves investigating appearances (dharmavicaya), in other words: insight (vipasyana).
Discriminating consciousness has established itself as the mechanism that drives us. It’s very smart that it creates two heads to lean on one. It’s not simply the idea of self.

Here it seems no difference between discrimination and perception is made, but still seems that for some reason discrimination/perception eventually has to go away. But if that were to happen, consciousness could not actually function in any meaningful way. That likely means taking a blank mind as the ultimate.
Ok. Consciousness within that mixed stated still arises in form of discriminating intention. The perception or thinking cannot be discriminating intention. No, it’s not blank unconsciousness. It’s quite clear actually but it’s subtle and hard to recognize.



The elimination of subject and object in Yogacara is the result of arriving at the correct view of consciousness only through conceptual effort. What does "consciousness knowing itself" means in your interpretation? How one knows one's mind, with what method?
That meditation the very consciousness is taken as the object but it is the subject. The acccurate way is it knows itself.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:33 pmDiscriminating consciousness has established itself as the mechanism that drives us. ... Consciousness within that mixed stated still arises in form of discriminating intention. The perception or thinking cannot be discriminating intention.
Is discrimination then intention? Or is there intention and separately discriminating intention? If the latter, what is the discriminating part, what is its role? If the former, intention is a basic mental function, just like perception, so there can be no mind without it.
That meditation the very consciousness is taken as the object but it is the subject. The acccurate way is it knows itself.
Consciousness is momentary. If a single moment of awareness is aware of itself, how is it not two minds? Or the mind knowing itself is a more complex matter, like thinking about how mind functions.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:46 pm

Is discrimination then intention? Or is there intention and separately discriminating intention? If the latter, what is the discriminating part, what is its role? If the former, intention is a basic mental function, just like perception, so there can be no mind without it.
I was told that discrimination and intention are two but as soon as there is discrimination intention immediately arises. I was told that we cannot fully understand until we pass the fence, so it’s really beyond my understanding but you can recognize that discrimination immediately followed by intention in your mind. The gist is habits created by consciousness and sustained over many lifetimes lumped together as self, ignorance, etc. It’s really a big mess. What practitioners need to do is recognize that state of mixture between ‘pure’ consciousness and non-discriminating nature. This state can be described crystal clear (through eyes) and this is where you recognize your nature. Even recognizing this state is not enough, because the the past habits will continue to pull us out when meeting conditions. That’s why at this state we need to practice samadhi and then try to enter great samadhi. But some people easily mistake that state with some samadhi as the end. That’s a case of mistaken identity. Dogzchen and Zen can recognize that state and recognize their non-discriminating nature. But there is still conceptual discrimination within that recognition as soon as intention follows discriminating consciousness, you have two heads to lean on one-duality. Everyone is currently and constantly using their discriminating consciousness. Practice is utilizing discriminating consciousness but it helps to reduce habits towards samadhi and great samadhi. You can’t escape it until great death. Everything you type right now is consciousness.

Consciousness is momentary. If a single moment of awareness is aware of itself, how is it not two minds? Or the mind knowing itself is a more complex matter, like thinking about how mind functions.
I think practitioners need to first recognize the state I mentioned above first and practice can take place they can decide which methods help them towards samadhi and great samadhi. But to answer you, yes at the state even at subtlety if you have the intention to observe it you have two heads not to mention distraction, but that’s one method. Another is simply currently is if you are assuming a sitting position, and this easier to do when you recognize that state. The point is never never give up.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:54 amI was told that discrimination and intention are two but as soon as there is discrimination intention immediately arises.
What is discrimination then?
The gist is habits created by consciousness and sustained over many lifetimes lumped together as self, ignorance, etc.
Habits are not discrimination either. So, what is the role, function, act of discrimination?
I was told that we cannot fully understand until we pass the fence, so it’s really beyond my understanding but you can recognize that discrimination immediately followed by intention in your mind.
If it cannot be known what discrimination is, how can anyone get over it? That's like going to an unknown place where one can never arrive, simply because it cannot be told when one is there.
Practice is utilizing discriminating consciousness but it helps to reduce habits towards samadhi and great samadhi.
If one does not know what discrimination is, how can it ever be utilised?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Matylda
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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If one heard or was told of some zen dharma one does not talk about it. Keeps for oneself. If one is not a realized zen teacher who is asked it is always good to stop giving others advices. Even if they sound very wise and lofty. Otherwise one shows only own ignorance and harms himslef or others as well. One with any knowledge of zen keeps silent.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:22 am
What is discrimination then?
It’s what you are using right now at your mind.

Habits are not discrimination either. So, what is the role, function, act of discrimination?
Habits are loaded with many things that involve discriminating consciousness. You cannot accurate know everything because we are in the state of ignorance until you pass the fence. The role and function of discriminating consciousness is to perpetuate old habits and create new ones when it deludes you.

If it cannot be known what discrimination is, how can anyone get over it? That's like going to an unknown place where one can never arrive, simply because it cannot be told when one is there.
Discriminating mind is what you use right now. How else would you be able to make that statement?

If one does not know what discrimination is, how can it ever be utilised?

Your mind.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Matylda wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:24 am If one heard or was told of some zen dharma one does not talk about it. Keeps for oneself. If one is not a realized zen teacher who is asked it is always good to stop giving others advices. Even if they sound very wise and lofty. Otherwise one shows only own ignorance and harms himslef or others as well. One with any knowledge of zen keeps silent.
This is a genuine advice precisely the human self gets involved. I can only tell my part that I know, and I don’t claim to be a realized person or knowing beyond the scope of what I haven’t been to. It’s Buddhism in a gist not just Zen. But I totally understand what you are talking about because people can give you a lot of trouble/obstacles that reflect in real life on your path. It’s not my intention to sound wise and lofty. We can leave it at that.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:02 pmIt’s what you are using right now at your mind.
To read and write a lot of mental functions are used. Which one is discrimination?
The role and function of discriminating consciousness is to perpetuate old habits and create new ones when it deludes you.
In that case telling the difference between things - i.e. discriminating - is not discrimination, since that does not necessarily involve habituation, while mindlessly repeating things counts as an act of discriminating consciousness.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm

To read and write a lot of mental functions are used. Which one is discrimination?
If you don’t discriminate, how do you know what to write?

In that case telling the difference between things - i.e. discriminating - is not discrimination, since that does not necessarily involve habituation, while mindlessly repeating things counts as an act of discriminating consciousness.
If you are able to clearly discern all mental events, then that’s wisdom. But you cannot do that 24/7 and do it without errors because old habits kick in, so discriminating consciousness deludes, opposite of clearly knowing.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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As soon as you read a statement, that’s when discriminate followed by intention and thinking in trying to understand or grasp. You can recognize that. It manifests at all levels.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:35 pmIf you don’t discriminate, how do you know what to write?
If it is not defined what discrimination is, how could its appearance be identified? I'm asking you, because it seems I have a different view about discrimination than you do, so it'd be better if you could specify what you mean by it.
If you are able to clearly discern all mental events, then that’s wisdom. But you cannot do that 24/7 and do it without errors because old habits kick in, so discriminating consciousness deludes, opposite of clearly knowing.
As I take it, discernment is discrimination, so if we use my interpretation, discriminating consciousness can also be a source of clarity, because what matters is not the act of discrimination, but the concepts one applies when discriminating.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

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Astus wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:58 pm
If it is not defined what discrimination is, how could its appearance be identified? I'm asking you, because it seems I have a different view about discrimination than you do, so it'd be better if you could specify what you mean by it.
Okay. I can’t define it it’s not a thing. It can be pointed out as function of mind. It’s a matter of recognizing that self-aware state of consciousness.
As I take it, discernment is discrimination, so if we use my interpretation, discriminating consciousness can also be a source of clarity, because what matters is not the act of discrimination, but the concepts one applies when discriminating.
Okay. It’s a matter of discovering for oneself. Past habits involve ignorance, so we can’t know clearly without involving attachment. But that’s the practice.
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Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature

Post by bokki »

bokki wrote:
Sir, may i just ask a little question, please.? so, if one gains nirvana, then..what happens then?...
if, one has no grasping,, will he stop eating?
the way you explain is good,
but,
samsara is a bit of a fool, so, its just ...
what?
samsara is the truth...but, the cessation of grasping, is a folly

LastLegend wrote:

You asked me or Astus. If you asked me, the answer is I have not reached Nirvana.

But to answer you to my knowledge, when a Bodhisattva manifests in our world they do what we do but they don’t suffer mentally like we do. They have bodily pain but they don’t arise additional mental suffering.



legend, im sorry, i should have said sirs...

is it not the vow of a Bodhisattva to not nirvana himself until all go there... now ..when will that be, in what universe?
in what parallel world?
and yes, grasping is a disease, but, will not a measly monk also grasp, but in contrast to the grasping of a , for ex, banker..
what i am trying to say..
is that this samsara, ignorance, consciousness, is the meat and veg of enlightenment... yes, its sweet, and sour
it is life and ..death..so

what is your take on this..
the meat and veg of this practice...
when practice in itself has an aim, it is grasping..
so,
down to what it is..
what is it
?













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