Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:22 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:42 pm
You don’t get it.
And the degree to which you don’t get it means that you don’t know that you don’t get it.

It’s actually pretty embarrassing.
No! I get it if I didn’t get why would I tell you I will stop posting there. You think I muddle with my sutric view because they don’t use the same model or even talk or explain skandhas. Hey man. People should follow their teacher’s instructions and ignore the rest that they don’t find helpful or more confusing.

But like I said: I, too, have little patience. Maybe these supreme teachings doesn’t do people any good in terms of gaining more patience. I guess I should appreciate you for protecting others from being confused by my crap. But I hope you’ll use the same criteria (what would that really be?) to give others the same feedback where you see fit which means pointing to them errors of their actions even views. Likewise a dosage of self reflection is needed for the rest of us right! I’d be lying if I say I don’t commit any errors. Yeah man Zen 6th Patriarch said correct our errors and look not at others for errors.
Make personal vows.

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Astus
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Astus » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:53 pm
recognize in us the part that knows that’s not relying on aggregates.
Recognising what knows is fine, but it's not something outside the aggregates, but rather the aggregate called consciousness, and as such it is impermanent and dependently originated. To assume cognisance beyond the aggregates is another form of assuming a self. Rather, to recognise what knows must include recognising it as fabricated and unreliable.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:29 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:53 pm
recognize in us the part that knows that’s not relying on aggregates.
Recognising what knows is fine, but it's not something outside the aggregates, but rather the aggregate called consciousness, and as such it is impermanent and dependently originated. To assume cognisance beyond the aggregates is another form of assuming a self. Rather, to recognise what knows must include recognising it as fabricated and unreliable.
Dude hahaha! It’s tough stuff. Sometimes I’ve asked myself I am there yet. Then I realized I am not. Sometimes I thought I was there but not! Mistaken identity part of the struggle right.
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by SteRo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:56 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 pm
To assume cognisance beyond the aggregates is another form of assuming a self.
Great. The jugglery of the clinging aggregates.

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Warning: Keep to the subject and recognize this is the Zen subforum.

If you want to bicker, do it through PM as much as possible.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by TrimePema » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:35 pm

just look at the meditation instructions in the platform sutra instead of asking about the nature. if you read from the beginning of the platform sutra through the chapter on meditation then you might just come to rest in the natural state anyway, it's that kind of text.

asking about the nature is generally a fool's errand because it supposes one can gain direct knowledge from being told. one can only conceptualize from being told, which is indirect. asking is the preliminary step to finding out, but the classic scenario occurs: if I ask where the moon is and someone who knows where it is points it out, do I see it?

then if I say "yes, of course I see it! the moon is white and very large and bright. it's more visible at night, sometimes visible in day but is present all the time" then mistakenly some people think from conceptualization "oh I know what the moon is... it's white and very large and bright, it's more visible at night, sometimes visible in day but is present all the time!" and then I feel like telling everyone, which only confuses people who have not seen it or never thought to ask. anyone who has seen the moon will say "yes thats true. the moon is like that. that's the nature of the moon." but also it is obvious to them that the speaker, I, has probably not seen the moon directly, although one can never be too sure. but thinking this way generally has the consequence of obscuring one's capacity to see the moon in the sky - so resting in the view, it's easier for me to say nothing about the moon at all. now I've loosely adopted the following: if I've seen it, don't speak about the moon directly since I can't show anyone the moon. on the other hand, if actually I haven't seen it, I'll keep asking the way - not what it looks like. if I'm not sure whether I saw it or not, then it's not for sure I've been introduced to the moon, since an introduction brings confidence directly. anyway, I try not to make such doubt. I rest, instead of always trying to contrive clouds into the shape of the moon. I heard from someone who has seen the moon and knows the way that if you rest, instead of always trying to contrive clouds into this and that, especially the shape of the moon, then the moonlit clouds clear themselves since the sky is naturally open and formless... and there's the shining moon. BUT EITHER THOUGHTS OR DULLNESS KEEP OVERWHELMING ME AND I KEEP BLACKING OUT, MISTAKING CLOUDS AND BLANK "SKY" FOR THE MOON AND TALKING ABOUT THAT TO OTHERS INSTEAD!

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:30 pm

There is a state with no thoughts yet with clarity (not dull) everything is like space, yet it’s still mistaken for nature.
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by seeker242 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:38 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:13 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:45 am
LastLegend wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
If you don't make up ideas or notions about "knowing quality", "present", "infused" or "consciousness", then where are they?
Well if you we are having a conversation, we need to use words right!
Sure, but I don't think Hui Neng is talking about having conversations when he said “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” He's talking fundamentally, or one could say ultimately, same difference. But, the fact that you need to make ideas to have a conversation doesn't negate or contradict the statement of “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.”.

:smile:
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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:01 pm

there is no ultimate thing - every 'thing' is composed of parts, actually flowing like water, if you look at it long enough. It's a mirage, a confluence of causes and effects, with nothing substantial in it. I think the basic problem is objectification, to seize on this or that, some element, some thing, or some idea, as being 'really it'. There is nothing that can be seized in that matter, so all has to be let go.

Actually this is also something that is an undercurrent in modern culture and everyday life. Ask the man in the street, what everything is made from, what it consists of, he will say, naturally, that it's 'made from atoms'. Whilst everything can be taken to pieces, atoms are thought to be permanent, stable, enduring, real. But - they're not. This is one of the discoveries of 20th century physics. So in some ways, science itself is beginning to 'realise emptiness', although without bodhi, it has no way of framing the significance of that, so it simply leads to all manner of arcane speculation and prapanca, often in mathematical form.

:namaste:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:03 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:38 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:13 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:45 am


If you don't make up ideas or notions about "knowing quality", "present", "infused" or "consciousness", then where are they?
Well if you we are having a conversation, we need to use words right!
Sure, but I don't think Hui Neng is talking about having conversations when he said “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” He's talking fundamentally, or one could say ultimately, same difference. But, the fact that you need to make ideas to have a conversation doesn't negate or contradict the statement of “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.”.

:smile:
Thanks!
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:01 am

Moved from the general Mahayana section to Zen.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Matylda » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:45 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm
Hui Neng, 6th Zen Patriarch said, “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
it is pretty wrong quotation and very incomplete what leaves a lot of space for doubts.

and English translation is misleading and incomplete
this is the original text of quotation
無一物中無尽蔵

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 am

Astus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:45 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
He did not add that. The term knowing/awareness (zhi 知) was what Heze Shenhui and Guifeng Zongmi propagated, while others ridiculed. So the Platform Sutra (ch 8, BDK ed, p 78) says this of Shenhui: “I told you it was without name or title, but you have called it the fundamental source, the buddha-nature. You’ve just covered your head with thatch. You’ve become a follower with only discriminative understanding.”

Hyujeong wrote (Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 239-240):

'Knowing (知) and understanding (解) are the great faults of the Buddhadharma. Heze, who was an illegitimate heir of Caoqi, used them. The Vimalakīrti(nirdeśa) sūtra says, “Remove what it has.” The Lotus Sutra says, “Remove the shit and take the wages.” These are all states of knowing and understanding. For this reason knowing and understanding are obstacles to correct views, like rancid rice offered to starving ghosts, like bad water being used to pollute the field of the mind, which is not as good as looking at Zhaozhou’s character mu.'
Later Chan teachers seemed to have a mistaken idea of what 知 meant, they took it to mean 知解 or conceptual understanding whereas Zongmi and Shenhui both made it clera that this 知 had a closer meaning to 智 or wisdom. As Shenhui answer in response to how kensho works: "本空寂体上,自有般若智能知,不假缘起。若立缘起,既有次第" “The body of emptiness and extinction nautrally has itself prajna wisdom which knows not relying on causes and conditions. If established by causes and conditions then it would be gradual."

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Astus » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:52 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 am
Later Chan teachers seemed to have a mistaken idea of what 知 meant, they took it to mean 知解 or conceptual understanding whereas Zongmi and Shenhui both made it clera that this 知 had a closer meaning to 智 or wisdom.
Do you have an example for that? To me it rather seems that conceiving such an ultimate awareness/knowing is itself a conceptual understanding, and it's not that people mistook what Shenhui and Zongmi meant.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:52 pm
ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 am
Later Chan teachers seemed to have a mistaken idea of what 知 meant, they took it to mean 知解 or conceptual understanding whereas Zongmi and Shenhui both made it clera that this 知 had a closer meaning to 智 or wisdom.
Do you have an example for that? To me it rather seems that conceiving such an ultimate awareness/knowing is itself a conceptual understanding, and it's not that people mistook what Shenhui and Zongmi meant.
That would be the issue. It’s imaginary perception or delusion or thinking of what is. But I think it’s fine trying describe it within the experience.
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by White Lotus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:40 pm

Astus, some questions regarding you'r post.
Recognising what knows is fine, but it's not something outside the aggregates, but rather the aggregate called consciousness, and as such it is impermanent and dependently originated.
when there is an absence of personal self seen within-without who or what possesses consciousness? how can we say there is anything to be impermanent or dependent upon anything?

To assume cognisance beyond the aggregates is another form of assuming a self. Rather, to recognise what knows must include recognising it as fabricated and unreliable.
when no one is cognisant and thoughts arise what is this process, other than appearance of thoughts were in reality there is no thinker. being no thinker we know that there are no thoughts, only the appearance of thoughts. all a dream a mirage, no one observing and yet this is not without observing. no self without absence of self. yet definitely not with self.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:50 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:40 pm
when there is an absence of personal self seen within-without who or what possesses consciousness? how can we say there is anything to be impermanent or dependent upon anything?
There is no owner, never has been, as it is merely a false concept, therefore consciousness does not require the idea of an owner to function.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:13 pm

Greetings Dharma friends White Lotus and Astus :lol: ...

One issue here: we might gain insight then go broadcast to others, then we end up cleaning our wounds. Figuratively speaking. But we are stubborn, so we’ll continue to do that.

White Lotus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:40 pm
Astus, some questions regarding you'r post.
Recognising what knows is fine, but it's not something outside the aggregates, but rather the aggregate called consciousness, and as such it is impermanent and dependently originated.
when there is an absence of personal self seen within-without who or what possesses consciousness? how can we say there is anything to be impermanent or dependent upon anything?
You would be asked: what that sees ‘absence of personal self?’
when no one is cognisant and thoughts arise what is this process, other than appearance of thoughts were in reality there is no thinker. being no thinker we know that there are no thoughts, only the appearance of thoughts. all a dream a mirage, no one observing and yet this is not without observing. no self without absence of self. yet definitely not with self.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
If you see from a ‘place’ naturally without subject and object, that’s true. But beware of other things obstructing in different ways. Even such ‘place’ is seen, it’s not done.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:50 pm
White Lotus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:40 pm
when there is an absence of personal self seen within-without who or what possesses consciousness? how can we say there is anything to be impermanent or dependent upon anything?
There is no owner, never has been, as it is merely a false concept, therefore consciousness does not require the idea of an owner to function.
:lol:

Question:
What is enough learning without being too much or too little? Too much then we will keep remembering what memorized. Too little not enough understanding for the job.
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:01 pm

Mdm Matylda :
LastLegend wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm
Hui Neng, 6th Zen Patriarch said, “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.


it is pretty wrong quotation and very incomplete what leaves a lot of space for doubts.

and English translation is misleading and incomplete
this is the original text of quotation
無一物中無尽蔵
Mam, would you please elaborate, since it may shed some light as to the meaning, as well as your view, and our understanding.
what does
無一物中無尽蔵
mean,
and how are we to understand it ?
Thank you very much.

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