Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

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Astus
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:29 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm
What is enough learning without being too much or too little? Too much then we will keep remembering what memorized. Too little not enough understanding for the job.
There cannot be too much learning, only the obstacle of staying with mere conceptual knowledge without in depth understanding and meticulous application in practice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:29 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm
What is enough learning without being too much or too little? Too much then we will keep remembering what memorized. Too little not enough understanding for the job.
There cannot be too much learning, only the obstacle of staying with mere conceptual knowledge without in depth understanding and meticulous application in practice.
Indeed it’s a delicate task with precise and correct understanding, that’s what I see.

Disagreed with ‘there cannot be too much learning:’ at the natural ‘place’ of no subject and object, try to move an inch and will be crushed by mt. Meru.
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by White Lotus » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm

consciousness does not require the idea of an owner to function.
Thank you Astus. the skandha of consciousness does not require an owner to function. actually it is proof towards there being no owner.

knowing too much, knowing too little, both are just judgements, vikalpa.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:24 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm

Thank you Astus. the skandha of consciousness does not require an owner to function. actually it is proof towards there being no owner.
Then how is duality constructed?
knowing too much, knowing too little, both are just judgements, vikalpa.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
Maybe grasping doesn’t start with language?
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by White Lotus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:42 pm

good questions Last legend. in truth I do not know the answers. :smile:
Then how is duality constructed?]
duality ceases when perception of self as subject or object ceases. duality is constructed from self and its perceptions of what seems a dual reality. if there is no self how can there be duality? duality is just a mirage, an illusion. so too, oneness is just a mirage, an illusion. and yet things are not without self, nor without duality, nor without oneness.

Maybe grasping doesn’t start with language?
you think that grasping starts with the judgement of perception... blue, green, red, white, bright, dark? direct experience beyond language.

grasping starts with self. when there is no self nor absence of self then there is no perception nor absence of perception. it is natural for perception to discriminate, but when self is not seen, nor absent there is no discriminator nor absence of a discriminator; only the appearance of discrimination. actually there is no discrimination nor absence of discrimination in the samjna skandha. how could there be where no self is involved to discriminate (and yet no absence of self).

but really, I don't know what I am talking about. this is grasping in the dark. it is all prapanca and vikalpa. just play...

so, please don't take my words seriously.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:30 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:42 pm
good questions Last legend. in truth I do not know the answers. :smile:
Then how is duality constructed?]
duality ceases when perception of self as subject or object ceases. duality is constructed from self and its perceptions of what seems a dual reality. if there is no self how can there be duality? duality is just a mirage, an illusion. so too, oneness is just a mirage, an illusion. and yet things are not without self, nor without duality, nor without oneness.

Maybe grasping doesn’t start with language?
you think that grasping starts with the judgement of perception... blue, green, red, white, bright, dark? direct experience beyond language.

grasping starts with self. when there is no self nor absence of self then there is no perception nor absence of perception. it is natural for perception to discriminate, but when self is not seen, nor absent there is no discriminator nor absence of a discriminator; only the appearance of discrimination. actually there is no discrimination nor absence of discrimination in the samjna skandha. how could there be where no self is involved to discriminate (and yet no absence of self).

but really, I don't know what I am talking about. this is grasping in the dark. it is all prapanca and vikalpa. just play...

so, please don't take my words seriously.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
You sound dangerous.

1) Find yourself a teacher.

2) If can’t find one yet, clearly recognize your natural non-dual mind meaning not even a view trying to top on it. Pretty much forget what you have learned or whatever is trying to fabricate your unborn wisdom.

Or you will be:
走火入魔
:lol:
45689F25-3300-4884-B0EF-8C067BC060C3.jpeg
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by bokki » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 pm

Hui Neng, 6th Zen Patriarch said, “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
legend, do not you see a big discrepancy in such a statement?
as you were asking, may i ask you, what is your view, bcs, reading what you wrote, you have a number of views.
thnx, legend, for raising the question.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:17 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 pm
Hui Neng, 6th Zen Patriarch said, “Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.” Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
legend, do not you see a big discrepancy in such a statement?
as you were asking, may i ask you, what is your view, bcs, reading what you wrote, you have a number of views.
thnx, legend, for raising the question.

Sure view regarding what?
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by bokki » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:09 am

ok,
“Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.”
and
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
if there is nothing there, how come you find knowledge, quality, presence, infusion, consciousness there?
so, i ask you to just express your view about a question you raised, a great question.
thank you, legend.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by bokki » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:14 am

b4 u said..
Disagreed with ‘there cannot be too much learning:’ at the natural ‘place’ of no subject and object, try to move an inch and will be crushed by mt. Meru.
but then,
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
so, seems a few views, so, im asking...is it ok, me asking?

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:48 pm

bokki wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:09 am
ok,
“Fundamentally, there is not a thing there.”
and
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.
if there is nothing there, how come you find knowledge, quality, presence, infusion, consciousness there?
so, i ask you to just express your view about a question you raised, a great question.
thank you, legend.
Ahh you have to pull my tongue!?

So if you want views:

1) There is nothing there (to prevent nihilistic attachment), I said quality. But now I think unborn wisdom is appropriate.

2) From ‘nothing’ arises everything, problem is grasping and duality.

3) I was told to forget everything I’ve learned.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:56 pm

Maybe we should just hear crickets or cicadas in that great silence.
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by White Lotus » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:56 pm

clearly recognize your natural non-dual mind
meaning not even a view trying to top on it.
Pretty much forget what you have learned
whatever is trying to fabricate your unborn wisdom.


yes. sounds like you have a pretty good understanding! :tongue:


do you still have a personal feeling of self when looking within or at the world?

in non duality there is no teacher-student, no enlightenment-delusion, but if you don't have a teacher how will you realize this. that's the main function of Dharmawheel, to teach and to learn. homage to the Muni, whom i consider to be my teacher and one of the most profound teachers i've ever encountered.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:26 pm

I cannot speak as to Zen.

But in general terms Buddhadharma is not a Non Dual path as understood by Non Dual traditions.

This often comes as a surprise to those who have come to Buddhadharma via one of the actual Non Dual traditions, and who assume certain characteristics that are not in fact present in Buddhadharma.
But I repeat I have little knowledge of Zen.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:48 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:56 pm
do you still have a personal feeling of self when looking within or at the world?
Personally yes.

But here is a good Sign I’ve heard:

In sleep you are not deluded by dreams so no different between awake and sleep.

But since you’ve asked me let’s cross check:
What is that that makes distinction between non-dual and dual? And are you still deluded when distinction is made?

It might be more deep rooted then we know.


in non duality there is no teacher-student, no enlightenment-delusion, but if you don't have a teacher how will you realize this. that's the main function of Dharmawheel, to teach and to learn. homage to the Muni, whom i consider to be my teacher and one of the most profound teachers i've ever encountered.

all the best, Tom x :anjali:
Well 6th Patriarch said that unborn wisdom is your inner teacher, but be warned about falling into the abyss of ignorance. It’s good to cross check with your teacher if you have one.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:10 pm

I don’t have a personal business to make anything great, but feel free.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:23 pm

clearly recognize your natural non-dual mind
meaning not even a view trying to top on it.
Pretty much forget what you have learned
whatever is trying to fabricate your unborn wisdom.
what? well, that is 1 piece of a nice word! well done!
who is the author?
thnx!

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:55 pm

bokki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:23 pm
what? well, that is 1 piece of a nice word! well done!
who is the author?
thnx!
Haha
I thought one should only speak from experience, no?
clearly recognize your natural non-dual mind
meaning not even a view trying to top on it.
That’s a lot of struggle (still is), confusion, contemplation, practice, and praying buddy. Even so, the job is not done-things might appear clear and stabilized but falling from 100 ft pole is needed. Some people use both seeing hearing: through seeing it can be described as HD crystal clear, and through hearing crickets and cicadas can be heard in that great silence. I use both.

Pretty much forget what you have learned
whatever is trying to fabricate your unborn wisdom.
I have a guidance of a teacher and he said to forget everything I’ve learned.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by LastLegend » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:33 pm

Everyone has their own journey and practice that works best for them. Just basic stuff for discussion: unborn wisdom/emptiness, grasping, and duality.
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Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature

Post by White Lotus » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:46 pm

But in general terms Buddhadharma is not a Non Dual path as understood by Non Dual traditions.
I not sure whether Nagarjuna actually talks about non duality, but some of his statements follow a non dual structure of thought.
strictly speaking non duality is a judgement and therefore vikalpa and subject to prapanca. it can be a very useful pointer towards realization experience, but ultimately we let go of it and everything else. freedom from concepts and yet playing with concepts.

you are free to play with thoughts and feelings. all is naturally liberated.

What is that that makes distinction between non-dual and dual? And are you still deluded when distinction is made?
non dual is dual, dual is non dual. there is no distinction from a non dual perspective. all the same. no one is deluded nor enlightened and yet things are not without delusion and enlightenment. making distinctions requires judgement, thought/vikalpa. be free to make distinctions. just just just.

clearly recognize your natural non-dual mind
meaning not even a view trying to top on it.
Pretty much forget what you have learned
whatever is trying to fabricate your unborn wisdom.


all attempts to adjust ourselves, to learn the truth, to put on a new person are trying to change what is naturally liberated, and not necessary. however, what we learn can make life easier.

just be aware when aware, mindless when mindless. as for non duality: not dual-non dual not without dual non dual.

every thing I am saying is empty, it is mere froth, words. not to be taken seriously, but enjoyed. light entertainment! :smile:

what I am talking about I don't know, nor ever will know, not even that.

best wishes Tom. :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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