Zazen for a few

mansurhirbi87
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Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Dear ones,

What would you answer to the opinion that zazen is not to everyone, just for a few ? With it could be said that it is almost elitist


_/\_
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Dan74
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by Dan74 »

I think there are many preliminary/prerequisite practices that would be of more benefit. Or at least corequisite. I mean zazen is often touted as the be-all-end-all. I think for many it is a dead end. It is not about elitism, but about laying a foundation. No one would complain that laying a foundation for building a house is elitist. It's the same for a spiritual practice. Zazen is best based on a foundation of ethics, right view, right effort and bodhicitta (sila, samadhi, panna / right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi - zazen ). Not that these need to be perfect (of course they can't be), but some is necessary.
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Meido
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by Meido »

Zen is for anyone who has the good fortune to connect to it and is sufficiently interested.

Specific methods (including zazen) are for the people they fit. It is the teacher's job to prescribe them accordingly as the student's practice progresses.

There is no elitism in any of this.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Hidden Zen: Practices for Sudden Awakening and Embodied Realization

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
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seeker242
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by seeker242 »

Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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kusulu
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by kusulu »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:54 pm Dear ones,

What would you answer to the opinion that zazen is not to everyone, just for a few ? With it could be said that it is almost elitist


_/\_
I would answer that anyone could practice zazen, and actual Zen teachers do teach it to anyone. The ability to practice a quiet, still mind, is not so unique after all. Zazen is just one strategy or skill to achieve this. I'm wondering why you think it is elitist? It is a freedom, and leads to freedom, in my book.
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Meido wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:14 pm Zen is for anyone who has the good fortune to connect to it and is sufficiently interested.

Specific methods (including zazen) are for the people they fit. It is the teacher's job to prescribe them accordingly as the student's practice progresses.

There is no elitism in any of this.
I was thinking more on soto perspective as the center of all practices, almost exclusive. I know that rinzai has another methods, all depending on a master (something hard to find, so not to everyone)
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
It is easy. As easy as becoming bored. Practically effortless. The part that people have the most difficulty with is that it is so easy. Most people spend years never realizing how easy it is. That’s because the mind says, “what? No way. That’s too easy!” And refuses to give in. Just like falling backwards out of an open air plane with no parachute. That’s what true easiness feels like to the mind. It’s actually scary as that.
Be kindness
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Meido
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by Meido »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:22 pm I was thinking more on soto perspective as the center of all practices, almost exclusive. I know that rinzai has another methods, all depending on a master (something hard to find, so not to everyone)
Soto Zen also requires a master, absolutely.

Finding a Zen teacher is not difficult. In the modern era, it is easier than ever.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Hidden Zen: Practices for Sudden Awakening and Embodied Realization

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
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Meido
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by Meido »

Meido wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:41 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:22 pm I was thinking more on soto perspective as the center of all practices, almost exclusive. I know that rinzai has another methods, all depending on a master (something hard to find, so not to everyone)
Soto Zen also requires a master, absolutely.

Finding a Zen master is not difficult. In the modern era, it is easier than ever.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Hidden Zen: Practices for Sudden Awakening and Embodied Realization

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:28 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
It is easy. As easy as becoming bored. Practically effortless. The part that people have the most difficulty with is that it is so easy. Most people spend years never realizing how easy it is. That’s because the mind says, “what? No way. That’s too easy!” And refuses to give in. Just like falling backwards out of an open air plane with no parachute. That’s what true easiness feels like to the mind. It’s actually scary as that.
Very nice, Padma. You are right. It's so simple that it's almost unbeliveble. That's the difuculty, ironically. We think it's hard, our false ego.
Thank you _/\_
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:28 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm

Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
It is easy. As easy as becoming bored. Practically effortless. The part that people have the most difficulty with is that it is so easy. Most people spend years never realizing how easy it is. That’s because the mind says, “what? No way. That’s too easy!” And refuses to give in. Just like falling backwards out of an open air plane with no parachute. That’s what true easiness feels like to the mind. It’s actually scary as that.
Very nice, Padma. You are right. It's so simple that it's almost unbeliveble. That's the difuculty, ironically. We think it's hard, our false ego.
Thank you _/\_
Except that the sitting kills my lower back and knees, which is a constant distraction! But other than that...
:rolling:
Be kindness
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:07 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:28 pm

It is easy. As easy as becoming bored. Practically effortless. The part that people have the most difficulty with is that it is so easy. Most people spend years never realizing how easy it is. That’s because the mind says, “what? No way. That’s too easy!” And refuses to give in. Just like falling backwards out of an open air plane with no parachute. That’s what true easiness feels like to the mind. It’s actually scary as that.
Very nice, Padma. You are right. It's so simple that it's almost unbeliveble. That's the difuculty, ironically. We think it's hard, our false ego.
Thank you _/\_
Except that the sitting kills my lower back and knees, which is a constant distraction! But other than that...
:rolling:
:rolling:
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kusulu
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by kusulu »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
Really? Aren't you breathing already? And don't you use attention every day? So you are already doing both, and you can't tell me it's at all difficult to breathe and know you are breathing. Because that's just.... trolling
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kusulu
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by kusulu »

kusulu wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:50 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
Really? Aren't you breathing already? And don't you use attention every day? So you are already doing both, and you can't tell me it's at all difficult to breathe and know you are breathing. Because that's just.... trolling
Oh sorry, I didn't read that you have decided to shed the ego all at the same time. I think you are mislead into an incorrect notion of how zazen practice starts out. If the "Soto" description is more than 10 words, they don't know what they are talking about. Zazen is just sitting.
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by seeker242 »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:25 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm Breathing in and out is for everyone. :smile:
Sorry, but you all must agree that it's not one so easy practice as it seems
If it was always easy, then it wouldn't require any practice. If you are having difficulty, then perhaps you can explain what you find difficult, then people may be able to assist. :smile:

:meditate:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

The difficult aspect, beside body disconfort, is that the mind don't want to be put in "checkmate ". It want finish the zazen. I practice some time ago but at same time i was having anxiety crisis. Once while i was practicing at a zendo i had a very bad experience. i told to the "master", that even is a professional psychologist, and she just said : "Oh, that it's the century malady !" I got very disapointed and left the pratice looking for another buddhist or non-buddhist spiritual practice or way. Recently i've thinking seriously to return. Indded i'll not think, i'll do it.
That is my personal experience that guided me to think, beside other things, that zazen was something not to everyone. Even the "master" said it once.

_/\_
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Re: Zazen for a few

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mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:54 pmWhat would you answer to the opinion that zazen is not to everyone, just for a few ? With it could be said that it is almost elitist
'If you can comfortably sit upright and remain insouciant, without being bound by anything — only that is called liberation. Make every effort! Make every effort! Of the thousands or tens of thousands of people in this school, only three or five of them have gotten it.'
(Huangbo Xiyun in The Wanling Record, in A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 2.44)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Zazen for a few

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mansurhirbi87 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:35 am The difficult aspect, beside body disconfort, is that the mind don't want to be put in "checkmate ". It want finish the zazen. I practice some time ago but at same time i was having anxiety crisis. Once while i was practicing at a zendo i had a very bad experience. i told to the "master", that even is a professional psychologist, and she just said : "Oh, that it's the century malady !" I got very disapointed and left the pratice looking for another buddhist or non-buddhist spiritual practice or way. Recently i've thinking seriously to return. Indded i'll not think, i'll do it.
That is my personal experience that guided me to think, beside other things, that zazen was something not to everyone. Even the "master" said it once.

_/\_
Century malady means karma of eons and self is being challenged. Anxiety is a result of lifestyle can be lessened through diet and excercise. You don’t want a meat diet you want a diet of principal unprocessed whole grains such as barley, brown rice, etc should be your 75-80% of each meal daily. That’s principal, the rest should be supplemental.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Zazen for a few

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:03 am
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:35 am The difficult aspect, beside body disconfort, is that the mind don't want to be put in "checkmate ". It want finish the zazen. I practice some time ago but at same time i was having anxiety crisis. Once while i was practicing at a zendo i had a very bad experience. i told to the "master", that even is a professional psychologist, and she just said : "Oh, that it's the century malady !" I got very disapointed and left the pratice looking for another buddhist or non-buddhist spiritual practice or way. Recently i've thinking seriously to return. Indded i'll not think, i'll do it.
That is my personal experience that guided me to think, beside other things, that zazen was something not to everyone. Even the "master" said it once.

_/\_
Century malady means karma of eons and self is being challenged. Anxiety is a result of lifestyle can be lessened through diet and excercise. You don’t want a meat diet you want a diet of principal unprocessed whole grains such as barley, brown rice, etc should be your 75-80% of each meal daily. That’s principal, the rest should be supplemental.
Thank you, brother. I had not that crisis anymore. I had three times strong ones and for a couple of months , almost an year, light ones.
One of the important lessons is about the "master". Shakyamuni said to us rely on the dharma and try the things by ourselves

_/\_

_/\_
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