Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Malcolm
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 28, 2020 8:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:58 pm
npr wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:45 pm


Negating it is also a stand.
You can't negate something that isn't there in the first place.

If I say "there is no such thing as the horns of a rabbit", all I'm really saying is the horns of a rabbit do not arise.
But addressing Malcolm's comment, I think this comment is remarking on the title of the thread without regard for the discussion that followed.
It doesn't really have to. There is no absolute. If there were an absolute, it would have to be an absolute of being or nonbeing. Negating the absolute is not a commentary on whether the "absolute" is being or nonbeing. Neither predicate applies. So there is no absolute. Since the relative truth cannot be established, the ultimate truth cannot be established. In the end, there is nothing left to say. Hence Vimalakirti's answer.

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 2:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:19 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:58 pm


You can't negate something that isn't there in the first place.

If I say "there is no such thing as the horns of a rabbit", all I'm really saying is the horns of a rabbit do not arise.
But addressing Malcolm's comment, I think this comment is remarking on the title of the thread without regard for the discussion that followed.
It doesn't really have to. There is no absolute. If there were an absolute, it would have to be an absolute of being or nonbeing. Negating the absolute is not a commentary on whether the "absolute" is being or nonbeing. Neither predicate applies. So there is no absolute. Since the relative truth cannot be established, the ultimate truth cannot be established. In the end, there is nothing left to say. Hence Vimalakirti's answer.
Sure, but in the context of this thread, it was a question about what Huang po, in translation, meant by "Absolute". At the penultimate point, there is an "Absolute Truth". At the ultimate, we sit around without anything to say to each other.

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 29, 2020 3:17 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 2:02 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:19 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:04 pm


But addressing Malcolm's comment, I think this comment is remarking on the title of the thread without regard for the discussion that followed.
It doesn't really have to. There is no absolute. If there were an absolute, it would have to be an absolute of being or nonbeing. Negating the absolute is not a commentary on whether the "absolute" is being or nonbeing. Neither predicate applies. So there is no absolute. Since the relative truth cannot be established, the ultimate truth cannot be established. In the end, there is nothing left to say. Hence Vimalakirti's answer.
Sure, but in the context of this thread, it was a question about what Huang po, in translation, meant by "Absolute". At the penultimate point, there is an "Absolute Truth". At the ultimate, we sit around without anything to say to each other.

Image
Nope. The original question was simply:
What is Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’ ?

Is the ‘One Mind’ considered as The Absolute ? Oneness with the Buddha is Oneness with the Absolute? or is it that **Everything** is Emptiness of self-being ?
If the reply applies to all Mahayana sects, kindly indicate

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 3:56 am

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 pm
( The reason I asked here is, that a while ago, I saw in this book t.ly/wEcv some references to this term )
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 5:10 pm

Anyway, doesn't matter.

As an exercise for my own edification, to connect Absolute Truth to the nullity of the Absolute and connect Malcolm's comment...

On close examination, Absolute Truth itself is a convention that is empty for the same reason that all conventions are empty. This is the so-called, emptiness of emptiness. Can this even be called a view because "the view" would be a dependent dharma, and where subject and object and all the other dharmas are established as empty, there is nothing but Vimalakirti's silence.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 29, 2020 5:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:10 pm
Anyway, doesn't matter.

As an exercise for my own edification, to connect Absolute Truth to the nullity of the Absolute and connect Malcolm's comment...

On close examination, Absolute Truth itself is a convention that is empty for the same reason that all conventions are empty. This is the so-called, emptiness of emptiness. Can this even be called a view because "the view" would be a dependent dharma, and where subject and object and all the other dharmas are established as empty, there is nothing but Vimalakirti's silence.
:thumbsup:

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 5:18 pm

I personally disagree with the way the question is answered. A lot of times I don’t personally ask myself the right questions either. I know it’s not the best practice for TOS, but question like what is the absolute should one to look and experience it? It’s not an easy thing to do. Not an easy task. A lot of time I think I’ve got it but karma of eons pulls me back in.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 5:57 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:18 pm
I personally disagree with the way the question is answered. A lot of times I don’t personally ask myself the right questions either. I know it’s not the best practice for TOS, but question like what is the absolute should one to look and experience it? It’s not an easy thing to do. Not an easy task. A lot of time I think I’ve got it but karma of eons pulls me back in.
Language is conventional. There is no other way to deal with this. 2500 years of Buddhist discourse has not found a way to pierce this problem.

What you're talking about is practice, and that's really a parallel aspect of Buddhism. This forum, or any online forum, is really not an ideal place to carry out practice. When we try to turn posting into practice, we often end up with the gibberish complained of above.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 6:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:57 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:18 pm
I personally disagree with the way the question is answered. A lot of times I don’t personally ask myself the right questions either. I know it’s not the best practice for TOS, but question like what is the absolute should one to look and experience it? It’s not an easy thing to do. Not an easy task. A lot of time I think I’ve got it but karma of eons pulls me back in.
Language is conventional. There is no other way to deal with this. 2500 years of Buddhist discourse has not found a way to pierce this problem.

What you're talking about is practice, and that's really a parallel aspect of Buddhism. This forum, or any online forum, is really not an ideal place to carry out practice. When we try to turn posting into practice, we often end up with the gibberish complained of above.
Well I don’t force anything on others. I just answer how I personally see fit. We can disagree from here.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 6:09 pm

When you interject into threads with your "practice", you do kind of force it on others. But we're free to ignore you also, I suppose.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 6:14 pm

The problem is, unless people have been around a while, its not obvious that you're just trying to practice with your posts. Maybe you need a disclaimer in your signature or something.

"If it appears I'm not making any sense, its because I'm trying to put into words the experience of the inconceivable."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 6:19 pm

LL, please note, I'm kind of teasing you and mean it in fun.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:14 pm
The problem is, unless people have been around a while, its not obvious that you're just trying to practice with your posts. Maybe you need a disclaimer in your signature or something.

"If it appears I'm not making any sense, its because I'm trying to put into words the experience of the inconceivable."
It’s personal preference has nothing to do with who is right.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 6:48 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:09 pm
When you interject into threads with your "practice", you do kind of force it on others. But we're free to ignore you also, I suppose.
A practice on here would be I am not drawn my own self karma to karma of others on here, is it easy? I don’t think so.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 29, 2020 9:14 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
It’s personal preference has nothing to do with who is right.
Intelligibility is a reasonably objective standard. But sure.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 29, 2020 9:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:14 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
It’s personal preference has nothing to do with who is right.
Intelligibility is a reasonably objective standard. But sure.
Well, at least tpk67 has a company.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri May 29, 2020 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 9:26 pm

:lol:
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

tkp67
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by tkp67 » Fri May 29, 2020 9:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:14 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
It’s personal preference has nothing to do with who is right.
Intelligibility is a reasonably objective standard. But sure.
Intelligibility held akin to the same levels of your own academic achievement?

Or to the measurement the buddha put forth when he left his seat of enlightenment to spend his life teaching liberation?

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by tkp67 » Fri May 29, 2020 9:37 pm

I am in accordance to the informality of the forums "it's not practice mantra" am I not gentlemen.

I would imagine if worldly achievements held dharmic weight in the degenerate age there might be some reason to conform. As I see in in this age that to put weight in such things is a treacherous path that I avoid with due diligence.

I'll stick to a practice that focus on compassion, equanimity, purity and boundlessness without exclusion to time and place as appropriate.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 29, 2020 9:39 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:48 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:09 pm
When you interject into threads with your "practice", you do kind of force it on others. But we're free to ignore you also, I suppose.
A practice on here would be I am not drawn my own self karma to karma of others on here, is it easy? I don’t think so.
Drawn to my own karma (self: conceit, irritation, anger, or whatever) and these things arise when interacting with others (who also have the same things going on).
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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