Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Dan74 »

Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:59 am
Dan74 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:22 pm
But haven't you made such judgments yourself here? Didn't you say that you had not met any Western Zen teacher who was awakened, or have I misunderstood? Or you don't class yourself as 'a student'?
You are right. I am not a student or teacher. But I had to interpret for some years, not any more, and it is definitely easy to sense confused people or just fake. Or very ordinary person.
Right. So there are in fact circumstances where a student or a non-awakened person can make such a judgment? Or does it have to be someone such as yourself, raised in a Soto family, making a judgment about a Westerner?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:52 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:39 pm She has for many years expressed deep skepticism about Zen in Western countries.
yes, it is true, I did it... sorry for that. but my sympathy is with Weserners in fact. Just I see the great difficulty in transferring zen or dharma in general and any Buddhist tradition to the hemisphere which was under completely different religious or culture influence for thousands of years.
I would not be so pessimistic. If the Dharma is what it says it is, then it is not limited by culture, which is nothing more than deluded mind; and if it can travel from India to China and Japan, which at the time had completely different religious and cultural influences, then it can survive in other environments.

The difficulty for a lot of western practitioners, though, is that they often lack an understanding of what they're receiving, and/or don't invest the time and effort to understand it, and instead interpret it through the lens of their own cultural background and experience. When you read what western students were writing a century ago, a lot of it is frankly nonsense, because good materials and explanations on the Dharma were simply not available. Today, however, I don't think people have the same excuse; it's more a question of effort. A lot of western practitioners also come to the Dharma because they've experienced difficulties in their own lives, often of a psychological nature, and they view the Dharma as some kind of therapy and treat their Dharma teachers as therapists, which causes a lot of other problems - whereas in a country where Buddhism is the dominant religion, that's less prevalent. You also see this quite a lot in China and Taiwan, interestingly.

I can't speak to the training of Zen teachers in Western countries. I would observe, though, that a lot of them are Western, compared to in the Tibetan traditions, where most Dharma practitioners will generally still seek out Tibetan teachers.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:24 am
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:59 am
Dan74 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:22 pm
But haven't you made such judgments yourself here? Didn't you say that you had not met any Western Zen teacher who was awakened, or have I misunderstood? Or you don't class yourself as 'a student'?
You are right. I am not a student or teacher. But I had to interpret for some years, not any more, and it is definitely easy to sense confused people or just fake. Or very ordinary person.
Right. So there are in fact circumstances where a student or a non-awakened person can make such a judgment? Or does it have to be someone such as yourself, raised in a Soto family, making a judgment about a Westerner?
no it is not east or west problem. but it is not difficult to figure out, just naturally, that one has ordinary qualities. and lets look at the situation in Japan and in the West. In the USA there are about 200 + zen masters. if we add Europe and the rest of the West the number should be vey high. But in Japan, there are less than 100 zen teachers, much less than 100 I may say from the point of traditional requirements. isn't it amazing? what really happened?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:49 am
The difficulty for a lot of western practitioners, though, is that they often lack an understanding of what they're receiving, and/or don't invest the time and effort to understand it, and instead interpret it through the lens of their own cultural background and experience. When you read what western students were writing a century ago, a lot of it is frankly nonsense, because good materials and explanations on the Dharma were simply not available. Today, however, I don't think people have the same excuse; it's more a question of effort. A lot of western practitioners also come to the Dharma because they've experienced difficulties in their own lives, often of a psychological nature, and they view the Dharma as some kind of therapy and treat their Dharma teachers as therapists, which causes a lot of other problems - whereas in a country where Buddhism is the dominant religion, that's less prevalent. You also see this quite a lot in China and Taiwan, interestingly.

I can't speak to the training of Zen teachers in Western countries. I would observe, though, that a lot of them are Western, compared to in the Tibetan traditions, where most Dharma practitioners will generally still seek out Tibetan teachers.


my observation is almost similar. as for the teachers, it is much more difficult to meet the Japanese teacher in the West than Tibetan. There are a lot of Tibetan teachers. Once I asked certain young Japanese roshi if he could go to Europe but he refused since his schedule in Japan is filled completely, he has too many obligations. And it is the case with almost every roshi in Japan. even if they go abroad it is mostly short trip, once a year. It is very difficult to study zen with a teacher whom one cannot see and meet.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:41 am no it is not east or west problem. but it is not difficult to figure out, just naturally, that one has ordinary qualities. and lets look at the situation in Japan and in the West. In the USA there are about 200 + zen masters. if we add Europe and the rest of the West the number should be vey high. But in Japan, there are less than 100 zen teachers, much less than 100 I may say from the point of traditional requirements. isn't it amazing? what really happened?
Couple possibilities.

Previous learned people in the east, who died, and were reborn in the west.

Every zen tradition from everywhere has gone to the USA, and other western countries, meanwhile in Japan it did not.

The USA has 2.5 times the number of people that Japan has. Therefore, has more zen masters also. If you add Europe and the rest of the world, the fact that there are more zen masters among a much much larger population of people, compared to the small population of just Japan, is a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. If you compare a group of 126 million people to a group of a billion people, of course there is going to be more zen masters in the 2nd group. Not really amazing but rather quite unsurprising.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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There were many Japanese teachers in the West one generation ago. Most Western teachers spring from this source, although they are rapidly producing as the non-Japanese teachers start giving transmission. As far as I know, most Japanese teachers came from a full-time practice background, but many of their students and dharma heirs do not. If I had to guess, this is one issue with the decline of dharma teachings in the West (not just Zen).

The Tibetan Buddhists have a different approach. They will often teach many, but will not authorize teachers who have not had at least some period of full time training (usually at least a three year full time retreat). Most lineage holders are the product of intense, ongoing full time training. And the people most likely to enter into full time training are non-Westerners. I don't think that full-time training is necessary for most, but for lineage holders, it is essential. There are Western Buddhist monks, nuns, and full time lay practitioners, but I find they tend to be quite few. I think we lack the cultural context to make becoming a monk or a nun a preferred option.

Of course, there are full time Zen practice centers in the West, but nothing like what we've seen in non-Western countries. In my experience, there are typically a handful of practitioners in full time residence. Others may have more information on this.
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:55 am my observation is almost similar. as for the teachers, it is much more difficult to meet the Japanese teacher in the West than Tibetan. There are a lot of Tibetan teachers. Once I asked certain young Japanese roshi if he could go to Europe but he refused since his schedule in Japan is filled completely, he has too many obligations. And it is the case with almost every roshi in Japan. even if they go abroad it is mostly short trip, once a year. It is very difficult to study zen with a teacher whom one cannot see and meet.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matt J wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:41 pm There were many Japanese teachers in the West one generation ago. Most Western teachers spring from this source, although they are rapidly producing as the non-Japanese teachers start giving transmission. As far as I know, most Japanese teachers came from a full-time practice background, but many of their students and dharma heirs do not. If I had to guess, this is one issue with the decline of dharma teachings in the West (not just Zen).
I think Japan Zen is unique with full time practice , but I don’t agree that non-full time people won’t make it. I don’t believe Buddha nature is a direct cause of practice. It has to do with suffering and aspirations which is a deal for people, I think. Might be the missing component here. Interestingly in the past when I haven’t met a teacher, I bumped into Ksitigarbha Sutra where a vow of Lion Roar Tathagata Buddha mentioned: when hearing his name one will become a Buddha. Today I feel better. Interestingly my teachers talk about vows outside of traditions. What is unique to me is I can’t sit and I don’t sit and I just work from the nature component and aspirations.
Last edited by LastLegend on Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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My claim is that it is essential for lineage holders--- i.e. the teacher who is expected to hold and transmit the lineage. It is one thing to realize the teaching (to whatever degree), but it is another to be able to guide others.
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:24 pm I think Japan Zen is unique with full time practice , but I don’t agree that non-full time people won’t make it. I don’t believe Buddha nature is a direct cause of practice. It has to do with suffering and aspirations which is a deal for people, I think.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matt J wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:34 pm My claim is that it is essential for lineage holders--- i.e. the teacher who is expected to hold and transmit the lineage. It is one thing to realize the teaching (to whatever degree), but it is another to be able to guide others.
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:24 pm I think Japan Zen is unique with full time practice , but I don’t agree that non-full time people won’t make it. I don’t believe Buddha nature is a direct cause of practice. It has to do with suffering and aspirations which is a deal for people, I think.
I agree. Wisdom is required to guide others. If a teacher comes from a disciplined Zen and has a student that can’t sit. What is the teacher going to do?
Make personal vows.

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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:52 am I see the great difficulty in transferring zen or dharma in general and any Buddhist tradition to the hemisphere which was under completely different religious or culture influence for thousands of years.
Every culture has a tendency to believe it's superior to all others. That's perfectly natural.

Such claims are impossible to prove because, for one thing, you'd have to discover which Zen teachers are awakened in the East and West in order to make a comparison. For that, you would need objective criteria, and no such criteria exists.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:41 am no it is not east or west problem. but it is not difficult to figure out, just naturally, that one has ordinary qualities. and lets look at the situation in Japan and in the West. In the USA there are about 200 + zen masters. if we add Europe and the rest of the West the number should be vey high. But in Japan, there are less than 100 zen teachers, much less than 100 I may say from the point of traditional requirements. isn't it amazing? what really happened?
Couple possibilities.

Previous learned people in the east, who died, and were reborn in the west.

Every zen tradition from everywhere has gone to the USA, and other western countries, meanwhile in Japan it did not.

The USA has 2.5 times the number of people that Japan has. Therefore, has more zen masters also. If you add Europe and the rest of the world, the fact that there are more zen masters among a much much larger population of people, compared to the small population of just Japan, is a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. If you compare a group of 126 million people to a group of a billion people, of course there is going to be more zen masters in the 2nd group. Not really amazing but rather quite unsurprising.
It doesn't really work like that. You need to be trained, and Matylda can correct me here if I'm wrong, but in Japan that would mean going through period of dedicated training at one of a small number of places. That doesn't just scale up with the size of the population, it scales with the number and throughput of training locations. We're only one or two generations out from the arrival of Zen teachers in Western countries, so it's really not plausible that there were that many people who went through what would be recognized in Japan as training. So either a lot of Western students are, absent a training of a duration or intensity that would be normal in Japan, achieving much better results and being recognized as such by qualified teachers; or the bar has gone down. I think it's for all of us to draw our own conclusions on which.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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I removed some posts due to different reasons: Please stay on topic, keep respectful especially if zen is not. your tradition and respect the ToS regarding no discussion about certain former members, as mentioned above.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:29 am
What I observed in the West is, that if people like a certain teacher then they do believe he has some special quality or wisdom or is enlightened etc. but once they stop to like the teacher, then exactly the same person is told to be unenlightened and in possession of bad qualities.

So if you ask such question I guess that mostly answer will relate to confused human minds of likes and dislikes. And it has nothing to do with the notion of a zen teacher and his awakening.
I think 'like and dislike' is basic to Western culture. So much is based on that. We're 'consumers' in regards to everything. I'm sure in a traditionalist culture the issue of like or dislike wouldn't even be considered (although that's not necessarily always a good thing).

As I said to Clyde, if you are a student of Zen then it is proper to regard the teacher as the embodiment of enlightenment. Otherwise there's not much point in remaining a student. I think that does require putting aside of the judgemental mind. It's not 'blind faith' but it does recognise that the 'Buddha mind' is on a completely different plane to the discursive egoic intelligence.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Daizan wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:05 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:52 am I see the great difficulty in transferring zen or dharma in general and any Buddhist tradition to the hemisphere which was under completely different religious or culture influence for thousands of years.
Every culture has a tendency to believe it's superior to all others. That's perfectly natural.

Such claims are impossible to prove because, for one thing, you'd have to discover which Zen teachers are awakened in the East and West in order to make a comparison. For that, you would need objective criteria, and no such criteria exists.
It is of course not about culture superiority... ths would be mistake. Still culture - mentality based on the dichotomy naturally makes difficult for zen to get through and establish itself properly in a new mental and social ground. It is not about the superiority...
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:29 am What I observed in the West is, that if people like a certain teacher then they do believe he has some special quality or wisdom or is enlightened etc. but once they stop to like the teacher, then exactly the same person is told to be unenlightened and in possession of bad qualities.
This is universal to the human experience. For instance, when a man is enamoured with a woman while they are dating, he might describe her as sweet, unique, charming, and "not like those other girls." If she is disinclined to continue dating him, suddenly she might be described as cruel, basic, sour, and "just like those other girls." And this is not a "man problem" or a romance problem. There is also the child who, when told he can't have a toy he wanted, pouts, saying "It's stupid anyways. I didn't want it in the first place." There is a fable of Aesop concerning it as well, though I can't remember which.

It is universal and addressed by the Buddhadharma through the abodes of Brahmā, as well as Zen teachings on non-discrimination between objects of attention.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:30 amYou need to be trained
In order to be a Zen teacher there are no fixed training requirements, only that someone already possessing the title assigns to you the same rank. That is the basic idea of the whole lineage and Dharma transmission system.
So either a lot of Western students are, absent a training of a duration or intensity that would be normal in Japan, achieving much better results and being recognized as such by qualified teachers; or the bar has gone down. I think it's for all of us to draw our own conclusions on which.
How could the bar go up or down? The very nature of the lineage transmission must guarantee that any appointed successor is of the same quality as the one who transmits it. Otherwise, what is being transmitted? And if nothing is transmitted, what makes a Zen teacher, since the only criteria is exactly transmission.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:17 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:30 amYou need to be trained
In order to be a Zen teacher there are no fixed training requirements, only that someone already possessing the title assigns to you the same rank. That is the basic idea of the whole lineage and Dharma transmission system.
Sure, but show me a teacher in a non-western setting that hasn't been through a period of (monastic) training.
So either a lot of Western students are, absent a training of a duration or intensity that would be normal in Japan, achieving much better results and being recognized as such by qualified teachers; or the bar has gone down. I think it's for all of us to draw our own conclusions on which.
How could the bar go up or down? The very nature of the lineage transmission must guarantee that any appointed successor is of the same quality as the one who transmits it. Otherwise, what is being transmitted? And if nothing is transmitted, what makes a Zen teacher, since the only criteria is exactly transmission.
Receipt of transmission doesn't mean you should be teaching. For example - the Taiwanese monk, Sheng Yan, didn't teach for many years after receiving transmission and authorization to do so, because he didn't feel ready.

Do you feel that the people teaching Zen in Western countries have the same capacity/capability to teach as the Japanese teachers who first gave Dharma transmission in the West? This is a difficult question to answer because few people will have seen a large enough sample, who can judge someone else's realization, you can't understand a teacher-student relationship unless you're one of them, etc etc. But what is your feeling on this?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:46 amReceipt of transmission doesn't mean you should be teaching.
As for what happens after, that is another matter.
For example - the Taiwanese monk, Sheng Yan, didn't teach for many years after receiving transmission and authorization to do so, because he didn't feel ready.
If you mean Shengyan, founder of the Dharma Drum Lineage, it was actually the other way around. He did a retreat, he started to teach, and then received Dharma transmission.

'However when my head-shaving preceptor, Master Dongchu came to visit me in the United States in 1976 and saw me teaching Chan meditation in the Temple of Great Enlightenment in New York, he said to me, “You still have not received transmission!” He had received transmission through the Jiaoshan sect of the Caodong School. On that day he gave me transmission and ordered me to continue his Dharma lineage, but there was no ceremony.'
(Chan Magazine, Summer 2017, p 14)
Do you feel that the people teaching Zen in Western countries have the same capacity/capability to teach as the Japanese teachers who first gave Dharma transmission in the West?
I sure couldn't tell, as you say, one would need an extensive sample to decide that, and even then the measurements used is hard to define. In theory, however, if we accept the doctrine of the lineage, there can be no difference, as those Japanese teachers appointed their own successors of their own volition and choice, like Shunryu Suzuki appointed Richard Baker.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by PeterC »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:26 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:46 amReceipt of transmission doesn't mean you should be teaching.
As for what happens after, that is another matter.
That is exactly the matter we're discussing here, though
For example - the Taiwanese monk, Sheng Yan, didn't teach for many years after receiving transmission and authorization to do so, because he didn't feel ready.
If you mean Shengyan, founder of the Dharma Drum Lineage, it was actually the other way around. He did a retreat, he started to teach, and then received Dharma transmission.

'However when my head-shaving preceptor, Master Dongchu came to visit me in the United States in 1976 and saw me teaching Chan meditation in the Temple of Great Enlightenment in New York, he said to me, “You still have not received transmission!” He had received transmission through the Jiaoshan sect of the Caodong School. On that day he gave me transmission and ordered me to continue his Dharma lineage, but there was no ceremony.'
(Chan Magazine, Summer 2017, p 14)
He had more than one teacher. I heard this comment about waiting from him directly.
Do you feel that the people teaching Zen in Western countries have the same capacity/capability to teach as the Japanese teachers who first gave Dharma transmission in the West?
I sure couldn't tell, as you say, one would need an extensive sample to decide that, and even then the measurements used is hard to define. In theory, however, if we accept the doctrine of the lineage, there can be no difference, as those Japanese teachers appointed their own successors of their own volition and choice, like Shunryu Suzuki appointed Richard Baker.
Well yes - if we accept the doctrine of the lineage, there can be no difference. Your choice of that particular example is an interesting one, though.
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