Wall Gazing

[bokki]

LOL!
that is just d best gif i saw! LOL! ever!
lol, i just love cats!
thnx Azaelis!
....
master and margarita,bulgakov
LOL
pure puer!

[dharmadhope]

and so who are you, after all?

I am part of the power which forever wills evil and
forever works good.

LO
L

[dharmadhope]

(goethe: faust)

[SunWuKong]

What I like about Zen is that everything can be summed up in its entirety precisely by saying nothing at all.

[MattiV]

When I started practicing zazen about two and a half years ago, I started with wall gazing right away. It felt like such a cool idea and I didn't have a teacher to tell me 'no, you can't do it'. I don't have elaborate philosophical reasons for this particular form of practice, I just practice it.

[Malcolm]

In Bodhidharma's case "wall gazing" likely meant not a physical posture but maintaining the mind like a wall, that is, without discrimination or attachment to emotions and ideas.

According to the Tibetan translation of Bodhidharma's account, the Chinese term "facing a wall" is translated as "Facing reality."

[clyde]

Malcolm; I remember you sharing the Tibetan translation of “facing a wall” (“facing reality”) many years ago and it’s stuck with me. Thank you.

[bokki]

oh, hi Clyde!
so good to see you!
ugh, have you been edited?
LOL
mods karma, my friend, lol

very , very happy to see you here.
thank you Clyde,
for much of the wisdom you share.
b

[Mantrik]

sirs, ill just chime in a bit here...
im from soto, but that does not mean i know something, or have a valid view..
of a wall, LOL

wall gazing is just another description of soto shikantaza..
4 example, just sitting...
just sit? do not breath? dont notice when the tanto is whacking you?

just sit? lol, ull be sensing what ur neighbor sitter is not only doing, but thinking..!
the left and right one!
and the whole zendo, too,
untill u samadhi out, and they have to wake u up..

just sit?
lol, ur liver, spine and lungs will not just sit!
they will help u 2 stay alive!
so.. so many strange words and ideas..lol

anyway, wall gazing, is not wall gazing ,
but resting the eyes on a particular spot on the wall,
...
i cant and will not go on.
samadhi is the reason, but methods are many.

i was severely reprimanded for holding my hands in a different
manner, not soto mudra, but a fist mudra.
what?
so touchy, full of tradition! many, many strange things, but well, thats how it is.

so, if u call it wall gazing, or just sitting, lol, i bow 2 u!

just don't think ill buy into such..w o r d s
...well.
4 me ""just sitting", ""wall gazing"" are just an unlucky choice of words.

just DO NOT listen 2 me, plz. thnx

I think I would notice if a TANTO was whacking me, yes. The ones we used were sharp enough to shave with. I would prefer to arise, disarm and settle back into seiza without disturbing my contemplation. Odd Zendo you attended.... did you also sit on a wakazashi cushion?

[Meido]

I think I would notice if a TANTO was whacking me, yes. The ones we used were sharp enough to shave with. I would prefer to arise, disarm and settle back into seiza without disturbing my contemplation. Odd Zendo you attended.... did you also sit on a wakazashi cushion?

Different tanto. He's referring to a role in the zendo, a senior practitioner.

I like your version better though.

[bokki]

Meido Roshi, so
very , very nice to see you!
i will always bow to you, please note that!


Mantrik, very good words.
well..
on my first seshin, the short kyosaku was brokken on my back..
why was that?
see, look,
after , we even bowed , to have a bit of kyosaku..
why was that?
sir, my zendo is non of ur business
i sat on a zafu and zabuton, at home i sat on all kinds of stuff

Sir, what do you sit on?.

i mean,
UGH, OK
ill try to be more silent..
hmm..if possible..lol

[Mantrik]

I think I would notice if a TANTO was whacking me, yes. The ones we used were sharp enough to shave with. I would prefer to arise, disarm and settle back into seiza without disturbing my contemplation. Odd Zendo you attended.... did you also sit on a wakazashi cushion?

Different tanto. He's referring to a role in the zendo, a senior practitioner.

I like your version better though.

I haven't heard of it as anything other than a Keisaku.

[bokki]

hey, Mantrik, Sir, thanks for your reply.
ok, sry, not kyosaku, but keisaku, ok, got it.
i sat in a soto zendo..

i would really like to know,
what was ur practice..general, nothing specific, rinzai or soto, or anything you would like to share..

for example, the keisakus were sharp..
our were blunt and.. lol.. heavy..LOL
i never could learn to wield the long one, the normal one, lol
i was so bad at it..lol

but, also, Sir, what is your opinion of the keisaku?

i, personally, think that it made me sooo
so much more concentrated and
give much more effort.

thank you Mantrik.
b

[Mantrik]

hey, Mantrik, Sir, thanks for your reply.
ok, sry, not kyosaku, but keisaku, ok, got it.
i sat in a soto zendo..

i would really like to know,
what was ur practice..general, nothing specific, rinzai or soto, or anything you would like to share..

for example, the keisakus were sharp..
our were blunt and.. lol.. heavy..LOL
i never could learn to wield the long one, the normal one, lol
i was so bad at it..lol

but, also, Sir, what is your opinion of the keisaku?

i, personally, think that it made me sooo
so much more concentrated and
give much more effort.

thank you Mantrik.
b

Oh, in Zen, just a few sessions as a complete beginner.
We had an Aikido dojo with a Zendo above it for a short time. (White Plum rings a bell but it was decades ago.) Yes, kyosaku is the Soto word for keisaku afaik.

I was more used to being chased around by someone with a tanto than sitting in a Zendo. It just struck me as an odd use of the word 'tanto', knowing it only as a sharp knife....which would certainly wake me up!

[bokki]

Thank you, Mantrik.
i only now understand that a tanto is a knife, sword too..LOL
how ignorant am i? lol

Sir, i was made to do this,
but, lol, i just cant kneel at the back of some1 in zazen, and, whack them properly !lol
so, after a few weeks, i was relieved from this duty, happily, ha.

sir Meido could, in a few sentences , explain the use of the keisaku, by the tanto, to wake and spur students on.

Could u please, Meido Roshi, say some about the use of the stick?
i dont think it is used anywhere in Buddhism, but only in zen and chan.. i dont know..

anyway, thnx for the nice conversation, Mantrik.

and i really hope Meido Roshi explains a bit, he is also an aikido master, and a steel forger.
thnx, all
b

[Meido]

Could u please, Meido Roshi, say some about the use of the stick?

Several uses. Mostly, to deliver a series of strikes to specific points that lie in between the spine and shoulder blade. The effect is to release tension, drop energy downward that has risen up, re-establish clarity, and dispel sleepiness.

The quality of the sound made when it hits reveals something about the internal condition and breath cultivation of the recipient: there is specific way to receive the strikes with the body that affects this sound. Naturally it also reveals something about the striker's condition and degree of skill. If those conditions are all correct, the sound can benefit others in the zendo as well.

[bokki]

yes! thank you Meido Roshi, i saidthet it would take you only a few words to explain it deeply!
Thank you.

of course, i have no such knowledge to explain this use of kyosaku deeper..
but, i would like to add a few things..please correct me if i am wrong, Sir Meido.

there a two kinds of kyosaku, a normal ,long one.
it is used every day, and students bow to receive a two hit, left and right..

and a short one, used on new students, only in seshin..
ugh, that is PAIN! WHACKED BY A 50 CM STICK ON YOUR BACK, WHILE YOU ARE TRYING TO MED..SHIKAN.KOAN..lol
repeatedly.. no escaping it..lol

anyway, yes, the points are 3-5cm from the spine, and shoulder blades...
but sometimes they end up on the top of shoulders or..
even worse..

i have not seen, or experienced this, but i have heard, read
that men, or even women, were hit
on the head, or even worse,
face.
hmmm

i, again, personally, think that the kyosaku really made me meditate harder.
a big help!

but , then, see, when my friends heard how that was,
they laughed and said..''u went to japan to be beaten..what is that?'' LOL

anyway, practitioners often bow when they hear the tanto is near, so they would be hit with the kyosaku, to dispel their sleepiness
or just for a..pick up.

so, it is strange, but for me so good!

different from the name ''wall gazing''...LOL

THNX, Sir Meido

b

[Meido]

and a short one, used on new students, only in seshin..

I only know one kind of keisaku/kyosaku. There are different weights of them for summer/winter, since garments get thicker in winter.

The teacher may carry a short stick called a shippei during kentan.

But I am really only familiar with the Rinzai practice I've done.

i have not seen, or experienced this, but i have heard, read
that men, or even women, were hit
on the head, or even worse,
face.

Training tools and practices can be abused.

We're off topic here, let's get back to wall-gazing.

[SunWuKong]

sirs, ill just chime in a bit here...
im from soto, but that does not mean i know something, or have a valid view..
of a wall, LOL

wall gazing is just another description of soto shikantaza..
4 example, just sitting...
just sit? do not breath? dont notice when the tanto is whacking you?

just sit? lol, ull be sensing what ur neighbor sitter is not only doing, but thinking..!
the left and right one!
and the whole zendo, too,
untill u samadhi out, and they have to wake u up..

just sit?
lol, ur liver, spine and lungs will not just sit!
they will help u 2 stay alive!
so.. so many strange words and ideas..lol

anyway, wall gazing, is not wall gazing ,
but resting the eyes on a particular spot on the wall,
...
i cant and will not go on.
samadhi is the reason, but methods are many.

i was severely reprimanded for holding my hands in a different
manner, not soto mudra, but a fist mudra.
what?
so touchy, full of tradition! many, many strange things, but well, thats how it is.

so, if u call it wall gazing, or just sitting, lol, i bow 2 u!

just don't think ill buy into such..w o r d s
...well.
4 me ""just sitting", ""wall gazing"" are just an unlucky choice of words.

just DO NOT listen 2 me, plz. thnx

you got that fist mudra from kung fu movies? thats the one i always use, unless i'm in the zendo of course

[bokki]

Sun!
So nice to see you Eric!
LOL
So nice, thanx!

ha, no not from kung fu movies, lol
just the rinzai mudra, which they dont tolerate in Soto..
you know the one, when the thumb is held by the other hand in a kind of fist.
sometimes my hands would kind of start to ''sleep'', so i would change the mudra, so i wouldnt have to bother with an another pain..
i suppose they think one cant do shikantaza while holding such a mudra..
or one cant do shikantaza while facing the zendo...lol
no, 1 has to ''face the wall''. LOL
i mean, what has ''wall gazing'' have to do with shikantaza?
like, y not window gazing, or toilet gazing, or gazing at the table..
imo, just a bad choice of words, just like 'just sitting', ..

at home you sit with the rinzai mudra, but in the zendo,
..??
u see..hmmm.

hey, Eric,
ill recount one little story about some soto vs rinzai mentality..
a bunch of us, all robed in black, were in a subway station, waiting for the train..
suddenly, there appeared this quite big, fat rinzai monk, all clad in blue..
he smiled at us, and started to approach us..
and what did our seniors do, the three of them..?
they stood up, made a 'wall' against him, and seriously stared him down..
so the man lost his smile, turned around, and left...
lol, tolerance on a tin spear.

talking bout 'wall gazing'..lol
what a special meditation..lol

like, ''thank you wall, that was really good, although i did not seek anything..'', lol
yup, modern soto in a nutshell.
how about ''shoji gazing''.. lol,, that must be an advanced method, lol

hey, Eric,
thanx for being here!
b