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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:29 am
by Grigoris
Dear shel,

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?
:namaste:

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:43 pm
by shel
gregkavarnos wrote:Dear shel,

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?
:namaste:
That's spelled too seriously. :tongue:

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:58 pm
by DGA
Jikan wrote:Hi Mr. Cohen,

What's the Treeleaf Lineage? What makes it distinct from other lineages of practice?

thanks
Any takers on this one? I think some context would be helpful: we might better understand Mr Cohen's comments in this thread better if we know better where he's coming from.

thanks

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:24 pm
by plwk

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:52 pm
by jundo cohen
Hi,

Happy to provide any information. I added the description at the foot of this posting.

A little more is here too ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/about-treeleaf- ... r-lineage/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gassho, Jundo

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:11 pm
by Grigoris
shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Dear shel,

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?
:namaste:
That's spelled too seriously. :tongue:
Ewe twying too drug me dawn tu? :tongue: x2

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:04 pm
by shel
gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Dear shel,

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?
:namaste:
That's spelled too seriously. :tongue:
Ewe twying too drug me dawn tu? :tongue: x2
:tongue: x infinity!

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:41 am
by seeker242
Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.

Those who have fulfilled the ten stages of bodhisattva practice are no better than hired field hands; those who have attained the enlightenment of the fifty-first and fifty-second stages are prisoners shackled and bound; arhats and pratyekabuddhas are so much filth in the latrine; bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys ~Línjì Yìxuán
Nothing but hitching posts for donkeys! Slander! Obviously this Línjì character had no idea what he was talking about. What a foolish idiot! But reading this thread makes me curious. Has anyone else here received official dharma transmission from an actual Zen Master, besides Jundo? Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:30 am
by shel
Sorry, you've got it all wrong, Seeker.

Línjì offers "the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma."

Jundo's offer "will welcome people into the doorway of the Buddhist Teachings who would be otherwise alienated."

Two totally different purposes. Línjì's endeavors are legendary of course. As for Jundo's homogenized Dharma, it seems that at least you and Gregkavarnos are buying, plus whatever students he has.

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:37 am
by seeker242
shel wrote:Sorry, you've got it all wrong, Seeker.

Línjì offers "the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma."

Jundo's offer "will welcome people into the doorway of the Buddhist Teachings who would be otherwise alienated."

Two totally different purposes. Línjì's endeavors are legendary of course. As for Jundo's homogenized Dharma, it seems that at least you and Gregkavarnos are buying, plus whatever students he has.
Not really. It's more like this: what I'm not buying is the hatred for another Buddhist. :smile:

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:47 am
by shel
If being critical is an expression of hatred doesn't that mean Jundo hates what he's critical of...

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:31 am
by Indrajala
seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.
Who gets to be called Zen master? Do you think having that title really reflects genuine accomplishment, or is it really just a position in a hierarchy?

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:42 am
by Fruitzilla
Huseng wrote:
seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.
Who gets to be called Zen master? Do you think having that title really reflects genuine accomplishment, or is it really just a position in a hierarchy?
So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:57 am
by jundo cohen
seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.
Oh, sometimes they do give to just anyone, or to someone they think they know but really don't, or someone they know but who later changes in nature (perhaps not True Nature, but human nature anyway). The blind leading the blind.

Lineage and "Dharma Transmission" have a lot of 'hype' about em too. As with choosing a physician for one's heart surgery, a white coat and fancy medical diploma on the wall says something ... but not everything ... and so it is with the Heart Sutra! Of course, the credentials and approval of a senior teacher(s) and years of experience and satisfied patients and reputation for talent and "track record" and absence of scandal all make it more likely that the fellow with the title is not a butcher or charlatan.

I would probably tend to trust the fellow with the Title and Lineage more than the self-styled teachers, although there are so many excellent self-styled (and non-self-styled) teachers too. That's because there are lots of quacks running around with white coats they bought themselves at the medical supply store, self-awarded qualifications and snake oil they cooked up ... and I wouldn't let one of em come near me!

In choosing a Buddhist teacher or physician or used car ... caveat emptor.

Gassho, Jundo

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:42 am
by shel
jundo cohen wrote:
seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.
Oh, sometimes they do give to just anyone, or to someone they think they know but really don't, or someone they know but who later changes in nature (perhaps not True Nature, but human nature anyway). The blind leading the blind.
Who among your fellows do you believe is "blind"? If that's what you really believe it would be responsible, least others be lead by them, for you to name names, wouldn't it?

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:29 am
by Grigoris
shel wrote:As for Jundo's homogenized Dharma, it seems that at least you and Gregkavarnos are buying, plus whatever students he has.
Buying? First of all I am in Greece, we have no money in order to buy anything... especially overpriced American products. Secondly, you have no idea who I am so how can you possibly judge? You seriously believe the Mahayana Sutras werew written by the Buddha? Go for it! I personally am a Vajrayana practitioner but I do not buy the whole "the Buddha taught Vajrayana secretly to a handful of students that whipped it out when the time was ripe" BS, I am happy to accept teachings that are obviously the teachings of an enlightened being without them having to pretend they were the words of the Buddha. Ven Huinengs Platfrom Sutra is a perfect example, or the Madhyamaka teachings of Nagarjuna, etc... Many teachings inconsistent with the Dharma Seals have crept into the Buddhist Canon just coz somebody slapped: "Thus have I heard..." at the beginning of their fairytale. And I did not arrive at this conclusion after listening to three minutes of Jundo's video a couple of days ago. I remind you of my earlier statement:
... "Luckily" I had the advantage of reading both Sutra and Sutta before being introduced to Buddhist sectarian polemics (via e-sangha actually) and so had the benefit of seeing both sides before knowing there are two (or more) sides.
Now, like I said before, if you have an axe to gring with Mr. Jundo then go ahead and grind it, don't try to set up an "us and them" dichotomy though, especially where it does not exist. Rest assured that if Jundo says something that doesn't sit right with me then he won't be spared the rod! :smile:
:namaste:

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:46 am
by Simon E.
I have absolutely no dog in this fight...but it seems to me that any axes that are being ground are being ground by you Shel.

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:44 pm
by seeker242
shel wrote:If being critical is an expression of hatred doesn't that mean Jundo hates what he's critical of...
No, it's just obvious that you have some personal problem with Jundo and what he says, even though it's completely and totally irrelevant to your own life. What are you trying to do here? Save his students from "faulty teaching"? How can you save his students if you can't even save yourself? Are you a zen practitioner yourself? Do you know what the zen precepts are? Specifically the one about abstaining from gossiping? How can you say what the proper Buddhist teaching is when you don't even follow it yourself? :shrug:

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:43 pm
by Indrajala
Fruitzilla wrote:So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?
I'm saying determining who is a genuine "Zen Master" is not so easily done. Word of mouth and hearsay is a poor gauge.

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:03 pm
by Fruitzilla
Huseng wrote:
Fruitzilla wrote:So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?
I'm saying determining who is a genuine "Zen Master" is not so easily done. Word of mouth and hearsay is a poor gauge.
Ah right, but that kind of applies universally if you're looking for any kind of teacher.