Dharma Wheel

xabir wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?

You're this guy?



THE PRACTICE OF LIVING ZEN
or,
A DIRECT INTRODUCTION TO THE SUBTLE MYSTERY OF THE TRUE FLOWER

Q. What is it?

A. It's a two week intensive study with me, 10 hours of Skype or phone (or face to face, if you want to come to Oregon) plus texts, e-mails, &c.

Q. How much does it cost?
A. $2,000.

etc etc

Matylda wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?

What a strange question... why you do not ask your teacher?

basically realization should be a realization of no-self, selflesness. There is no should or should not... it is silly. For one thing for sure one is released from inner tension of clinging to the self, since it is clearly a construct or fabrication. For those who lack sharp faculty, there are stages, which go along deep understanding of profound selflessness of all phenomena. However in the real zen practice it is realization of buddhahood in an instant, just by clearly seeing ones nature. Or primordial nature. There is nothing beyond this natural state.

Kensho could be very easily mistaken for sort of stable state of meditation down to different experiences including nothingness etc. To avoid it one should know the key points of form and formless dhyanas. However those experiences are totally conditioned,in this sense fabricated. Kensho is what is original to anything, as it is said before your parents were born or before the universe was born. It is totally unconditioned state which is only known to those who realized it in a genuine way. And this unconditioned state is what is the nature of everything. Whether sentient or insentient.

Satori and kensho are used alternately though the original zen term is kensho. Satori is a term which appears in Chinese version of Sanskrit sutras right from the first translation ca. 2000 years ago and was used as what is translated into English as enlightenment. Kensho has different flavor and connotation. However I observed that today kensho is used if someone passes through koan or so. This is not what originally kensho meant. Passing koan or any other experience in zazen is actually irrelevant in zazen, and could be an obstacle when handled unskillfully. Any experiences are still on the level of baby, not really mature. And they almost do not include selflessness, causing one to grow nuts, or proud, simply in wrong way... That sort of thing we can compare to mathematics... if one learned number 1, and becomes overwhelmed by this pretending to be an expert in highest form of mathematics. This is silly.

Kenshi is an aim of zen practice. Any question about it, or should or should not, is misunderstanding of zazen and the whole zen path and goal.

mujushinkyo wrote:Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will only take Zen seriously, and do the work it takes to get kensho, if they have to pay for it! It's perverse, but that's how it is.

dharmagoat wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will only take Zen seriously, and do the work it takes to get kensho, if they have to pay for it! It's perverse, but that's how it is.

I have only heard this justification from those who are making the money. If it has any truth at all, it would only apply to a few buddhist students who have more cash than sense.

mujushinkyo wrote:I get $100.00 USD per hour as a freelance writer. To coach a person full time for two weeks and to make sure they get it right -- that's intensive and it takes a lot of effort. So, of course I have to charge some money, unless I believe the person has such unbelievable potential that I'm driven to do it for nothing (which happens, too).

Also, I'm not teaching people Zen doctrines or Buddhist sutras. I'm showing them how to directly realize something that will help them via certain energetic techniques.

dharmagoat wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:I get $100.00 USD per hour as a freelance writer. To coach a person full time for two weeks and to make sure they get it right -- that's intensive and it takes a lot of effort. So, of course I have to charge some money, unless I believe the person has such unbelievable potential that I'm driven to do it for nothing (which happens, too).

Also, I'm not teaching people Zen doctrines or Buddhist sutras. I'm showing them how to directly realize something that will help them via certain energetic techniques.

Yes, I acknowledge this, and what you are offering could well be good value for money. My objection was to the claim that students won't value a teaching unless they have to pay for it.

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?

Quiet Heart wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?

Now that's the kind of question that shouldn't be answered by anyone but your teacher.
Since I am not a teacher, and really don't wish to be, perhaps the answer to your question would be to go there yourself, and see.

Quiet Heart wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?

Now that's the kind of question that shouldn't be answered by anyone but your teacher.
Since I am not a teacher, and really don't wish to be, perhaps the answer to your question would be to go there yourself, and see.

mujushinkyo wrote:Please get rid of the picture of Hsi Yun.

It doesn't suit you, and it's a little offensive for me to see this picture of a great Zen Master attached to your words.

dharmagoat wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:Please get rid of the picture of Hsi Yun.

It doesn't suit you, and it's a little offensive for me to see this picture of a great Zen Master attached to your words.

It is very confusing when members of this forum provide images of their teachers as their avatars. I am just as guilty, my teacher is an inquisitive white goat.

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.

Jikan wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.

Because that's your teacher's unpleasant responsibility: to listen to you talk about your experiences so no one else has to.

Matylda wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.

compulsively ? that is interesting way to put the matter in degrading terms... but it is rather simple. Once one is self made ''satori-man'', one ends up in the pit of self deceit. moreover if one tries and succeeds to draw others to ones distorted views, then more people will suffer from the ''satori-man'' deceit... then why compulsively talk that There is nobody who can teach you Satori?

gregkavarnos wrote:

Jikan wrote:

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.

Because that's your teacher's unpleasant responsibility: to listen to you talk about your experiences so no one else has to.

And to have somebody that you trust and believe in to point out to you how wrong you are.