Zen and Ki Training
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:21 pm
Has anyone else done Koichi Tohei style Ki-training in conjunction with sitting Zen (zazen or mokuso)? What were your experiences with it? Mine have always been interesting:
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I think Jikan gave a very useful answer, in that Tohei did not invent ki energy practices, he attached a label to he link with martial arts - the developer of 'shiatsu' again attached a label. I'm not historian but I think both Chinese and Indian cultures had such practices in antiquity.zangskar wrote:Thanks for the replies, Blue Garuda and Jikan!
To be clear, I think I should not have used the term Ki cultivation since that probably sounds like increasing Ki, which was not implied in the link by Mujushinkyo.
So I guess the answer is there is no long history of Ki/body energy practices in zen, except where zen was mixed with martial arts training?
Best wishes
Lars
No. I'm sure the martial arts have a tinge of Zen to them. Japanese martial arts and the styles of the samurai in particular were influenced by Zen philosophy. However I don't believe in qi/ki/chi so I can't comment on aikido.mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone else done Koichi Tohei style Ki-training in conjunction with sitting Zen (zazen or mokuso)? What were your experiences with it? Mine have always been interesting:
In Japanese Rinzai Zen there are indeed energetic practices. More generally-known ones include:zangskar wrote:So I guess the answer is there is no long history of Ki/body energy practices in zen, except where zen was mixed with martial arts training?
Of course Zen has certainly impacted Japanese culture as a whole, for example the flowering of cultural arts that was centered within the gozan monasteries. And there were famous martial artists who we know (or it is said) practiced Zen and whose teachings were influenced thereby: Yagyu Munenori, Musashi Miyamoto, Tsukahara Bokuden, Itto Ittosai, Tsuji Gettan, Yamaoka Tesshu of course. There were also eminent warriors/military figures who practiced Zen deeply, perhaps most famously Hojo Tokimune. Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin as well I believe.Ikkyu wrote:No. I'm sure the martial arts have a tinge of Zen to them. Japanese martial arts and the styles of the samurai in particular were influenced by Zen philosophy. However I don't believe in qi/ki/chi so I can't comment on aikido.
Terrific! Thanks. I really like and often use Hakuin's methods.Meido wrote:In Japanese Rinzai Zen there are indeed energetic practices. More generally-known ones include:zangskar wrote:So I guess the answer is there is no long history of Ki/body energy practices in zen, except where zen was mixed with martial arts training?
1. The breathing which is used in zazen itself, which is centered on the navel tanden and involves a particular, trained use of the pelvic floor and diaphragm.
2. The Naikan no Ho and Nanso no Ho practices of Hakuin Zenji.
In my experience all of these are described in terms of ki. There are additional practices unique to particular teachers and lineages.
The intent of these things as taken up within Zen training is of course different from Tohei's system (which was indeed influenced by his association with Tempu Nakamura). Tohei's system is not a "type of Zen" in other words...and as far as I know he has never presented it as having any relation to Buddhism, but rather as an independent training system of his own devising.
~ Meido
Practices like this I guess?Matylda wrote:Nanso and naikan are useful. Just a few remarks.
Yasenkanna does mention visit of young and very sick Hakuin at the cave of Hakuyushi. As one can slowly read through the text Hakuyushi first checked pulses etc. In fact in Japan this meditation is applied together with checking pulses and body/eneregy/mind condition. Actually the practice itself was secret and Yasenkanna mentions it, but does not go into details.
Thanks for the replies allI said : May I hear of the use of the So cream?
Hakuyu said : If the student finds in his meditation that the four great elements are out of harmony and body and mind are fatigued, he should rouse himself and make this meditation. Let him visualize placed on the crown of his head, that celestial So ointment, about as much as a duck's egg, pure in colour and fragrance.
Let him feel its exquisite essence and flavour, melting and filtering down through his head, its flow permeating downwards, slowly laving the shoulders and elbows, the sides of the breast and within the chest, the lungs, liver, stomach and internal organs, the back and spine and hip bones. All the old ailments and adhesions and pains in the five organs and six auxiliaries follow the mind downwards. There is a sound as of the trickling of water. Percolating through the whole body, the flow goes gently down the legs, stopping at the soles of the feet.
Then let him make this meditation: that the elixir, having permeated and filtered down through him, in abundance fills up the lower half of his body. It becomes warm, and he is saturated in it. Just as a skilful physician collects herbs of rare fragrance and puts them in a pan to simmer, so the student finds that from the navel down he is simmering in the So elixir. When this meditation is being done, there will be psychological experiences, of a sudden indescribable fragrance at the nose-tip, of a gentle and exquisite sensation in the body. Mind and body become harmonized, and far surpass their condition at the peak of youth. Adhesions and obstructions are cleared away, the organs are tranquillized and insensibly the skin will begin to glow. If the practice is carried on without relapse, what illness will not be healed, what power will not be acquired, what perfection will not be attained, what Way will not be fulfilled? The arrival of the result depends only on how the student performs the practices.
Looks like, but in Japan the popular published text does not contain instructions at length. Important points are missing. T. Legget could use only what was published.zangskar wrote:Practices like this I guess?Matylda wrote:Nanso and naikan are useful. Just a few remarks.
Yasenkanna does mention visit of young and very sick Hakuin at the cave of Hakuyushi. As one can slowly read through the text Hakuyushi first checked pulses etc. In fact in Japan this meditation is applied together with checking pulses and body/eneregy/mind condition. Actually the practice itself was secret and Yasenkanna mentions it, but does not go into details.
(Extract from http://www.leggett.co.uk/books/szr.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Leggett: A second Zen reader. The Tiger's Cave and Translations of Other Zen Writings. Charles E. Tuttle, Tokyo 1988)
I disagree. In the past I practiced Ki Aikido for several years. Though I agree it's pretty much useless for self-defence meant in the usual way, it improved my health immensly and recently I also began to think that it formed a great base for my work with ki that I did later. So it can be quite worth pursuing, depending on what you want/expect from it. Also, I don't think Kiatsu is just a rebranded form of Shiatsu. I didn't learn it myself, I just have the book and I only glanced through it so far and what it says in the begining is that one shouldn't even do Kiatsu before he has some proficieny in various areas of Ki Aikido (like keeping the one point). This for example is not part of Shiatsu as far as I'm aware. I also don't think Tohei wanted to "add" anything to Zen or martial arts either.Blue Garuda wrote:'Tohei's approach is not different in that respect from other Japanese martial arts or Shaitsu which he rebranded as 'Kiatsu'.
He was basically driven to his position after a bad fall which left him unable to perform Aikido as vigorously and effectively as in his youth. My own Sensei knew him.
He basically invented a useless form of Aikido in terms of martial arts and adopted Shiatsu and called it 'Kiatsu'.
I don't think he added anything at all to Zen or the martial arts, except to delude people that wafting your hand about and dancing in slow motion is useful in self defence.
I have never seen any evidence that 'Ki' can be developed and improved. Every demonstration I have attended, or class I have joined in, have been relaint on others who know the 'script' and dutifully leap about when Sensei hits them with his 'Ki'.
Sorry to be blunt, but it is not a path worth pursuing.
I read this blog entry you linked to.mujushinkyo wrote:This is sort of relevant, too:
"Zen Miracle Cure for Anxiety & PTSD" (using Hara breathing, Ki-intensifying & Seiza-sitting)
Having faced death squarely a number of times, my "samurai romanticism" has held up well. Seiza was the basis for samurai Zen. Takuan Soho, by the way, I revere.Meido wrote:I read this blog entry you linked to.mujushinkyo wrote:This is sort of relevant, too:
"Zen Miracle Cure for Anxiety & PTSD" (using Hara breathing, Ki-intensifying & Seiza-sitting)
The practice you lay out seems harmless and perhaps could be useful to someone. But describing it as "Zen done in the samurai way" is incorrect. I'm not sure why you did so.
Again, I think the inaccurate conflation of all things Japanese/samurai/budo with all things Zen is sloppy and needlessly confusing. It does seem to be a common marketing ploy, of course...though one mostly employed by authors with very little actual Zen training.
If someone is interested in "samurai Zen" and what it entailed, they should read the writings or life stories of some of the persons I mentioned earlier: actual samurai who did Zen. Add to that list Suzuki Shosan, and more recently Omori Sogen (the translation of his Sanzen Nyumon is the best English-language introduction to Rinzai practice that exists). Takuan Soho's Fudochi Shimmyo Roku is a very important text; there are several translations. Finally, Legget's translations of some of the Kamakura Zen records - in which the encounter between Ch'an/Zen masters and warrior lay disciples is described - is also very useful...I have seen it published as "The Warrior Koans".
There are still genuine teachers who transmit ways of practicing which actually do inherit the legacy of the encounter between Zen and the samurai, or Zen and bujutsu. They may be found if someone wants it. But that is an extremely severe path of practice, and it requires something more than "samurai romanticism" to endure it.
~ Meido