Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

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Palzang Jangchub
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Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:14 am

Presuming that one could procure fossils of hominids or prehistoric creatures of comparable size to humans, would these be suitable or even potent for use in Chöd practice? Or would there be little to no ritual efficacy with using such items?

The use of such items being permissible could help alleviate the demand for authentic kangling and kapala, allowing us to source from extinct sources. As it stands now, one usually would have to deal with the black market and items of dubious provenance which could get you arrested going through customs, unless your lama directly hands you such items...
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:38 pm

i dont see any point of looking for fossils. you can use ceramic, resin or wood.... my lama is useing ceramic kapala while travelling in the west. also, i have a doubts that fossil skull will have all the qualities. in that case is ceramic, or resin much more suitable,i think.

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lelopa
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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by lelopa » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:44 pm

at a chod-teaching a karma kagyu lama said: " use a human thighbone, or nothing!"
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:30 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:Presuming that one could procure fossils of hominids or prehistoric creatures of comparable size to humans, would these be suitable or even potent for use in Chöd practice? Or would there be little to no ritual efficacy with using such items?

The use of such items being permissible could help alleviate the demand for authentic kangling and kapala, allowing us to source from extinct sources. As it stands now, one usually would have to deal with the black market and items of dubious provenance which could get you arrested going through customs, unless your lama directly hands you such items...
can be of use, but must be tested. i've been told that for the sound of kid's femur is the best for inviting dakinis, and of adult's femur less effective, now i wonder if something fossilized is suitable.

by the way it is supposed that resin, mokey bone, plastic has not the same effect -even none-

how test it? we use our feelings, not thinking, so it's more subtle. feel our guests.

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:10 pm

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:i dont see any point of looking for fossils. you can use ceramic, resin or wood.... my lama is useing ceramic kapala while travelling in the west. also, i have a doubts that fossil skull will have all the qualities. in that case is ceramic, or resin much more suitable,i think.
Surely resin and ceramic don't have the qualities either, though, yes? Or is the symbolism the most important element, and thus if it looks like bone that's enough?

I purchased a supposedly authentic bone kangling from a Tibetan stall in McLeod Ganj, but when time came to return to the States I left it behind with a friend for fear of a hassle at the airport while going through customs. Bones show up when they x-ray luggage.

Later on I bought a shing (wooden) kangling from a Dharma center that one of my lamas brought back from Nepal, and it has been blessed, so that should do me for now.

However, I do find myself wondering if bones from extinct animals is a good compromise between real bone and synthetic substances. They were part of living creatures who, in some cases, were the dominant form of life on the planet for millions of years, but now their fossils are all that's left. No better reminder of impermanence than that.

We wouldn't be suspected of homicide for carrying them around, nor would living animals possibly be killed in order to obtain them. Seems like a win-win to me.

Does anyone know the qualities we should look for in kangling and kapala? What are the sources of these guidelines? And how do lamas decide whether a facsimile material is suitable or not?
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:54 pm

well, all depends what your lama teaches about this. my lama told us, that the best is to have real kapala, but if we dont have, we can use also wooden, or ceramic, or any, thats ok. the same for kangling.
the qualities of kapala should be explained by lama. and it is good, if lama will check also.

my point was, that it is -from my POW- easier to get wooden, or ceramic kapala, than to search for fossils.

:namaste:

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by pemachophel » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:10 pm

According to the Teacher I respect the most when it comes to samaya implements and substances, best to get the real thing. The fact that many of these things are getting progressively harder to get is due to the continual devolution of this Dharma-ending age. As a corollary of that, our inability to get and use the right implements and substances is one of the reasons our practice is not as effective these days. Personally, I think it is very appropriate to have to go to great lengths, expense, time, etc. to procure some of these correct implements and substances. For one substance for a lay-jor/activity I wanted to engage in, it took me over a year of trying to get, including going to Nepal and searching among all the Ayurvedic doctors in KTM. Finally, I was able to source the material from the uncle or cousin of a friend who was planning on escaping from Tibet. My friend found out his uncle had some of this substance in Tibet and kindly agreed to carry some out for me. If you ever see me on pilgrimage, I'm the one taking soil and rock samples from every holy place and collecting holy water from every sacred spring and anything else that is considered a blessed or samaya substance. Himalayan ngak-pas often have chests devoted to their samaya substance collections for accomplishing various pujas. The Teacher I mentioned above considers searching for hard-to-get samaya substances as the practice of tson-dru, the paramita of perseverance/effort.

As for kangling substitutes, it does say in Machig's namthar/hagiography that one can use antelope horn when performing chod. According to my most respected Chod Lama, this may not be as effective in calling the Dakinis, but it is effective for calling nature spirits, such Lords of the Earth, Nagas, Tsen, Nyen, Elementals/Bhuta, etc. These can be sourced quite cheaply on-line at eBay under "African Antelope horn." Or at least they were easy and cheap to get 3-4 years ago. All you need to turn one of these into a "bugle" is a hack-saw. Actually, you can source all kinds of samaya substances on eBay.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:22 pm

pemachophel wrote:According to the Teacher I respect the most when it comes to samaya implements and substances, best to get the real thing. The fact that many of these things are getting progressively harder to get is due to the continual devolution of this Dharma-ending age. As a corollary of that, our inability to get and use the right implements and substances is one of the reasons our practice is not as effective these days. Personally, I think it is very appropriate to have to go to great lengths, expense, time, etc. to procure some of these correct implements and substances. For one substance for a lay-jor/activity I wanted to engage in, it took me over a year of trying to get, including going to Nepal and searching among all the Ayurvedic doctors in KTM. Finally, I was able to source the material from the uncle or cousin of a friend who was planning on escaping from Tibet. My friend found out his uncle had some of this substance in Tibet and kindly agreed to carry some out for me. If you ever see me on pilgrimage, I'm the one taking soil and rock samples from every holy place and collecting holy water from every sacred spring and anything else that is considered a blessed or samaya substance. Himalayan ngak-pas often have chests devoted to their samaya substance collections for accomplishing various pujas. The Teacher I mentioned above considers searching for hard-to-get samaya substances as the practice of tson-dru, the paramita of perseverance/effort.

As for kangling substitutes, it does say in Machig's namthar/hagiography that one can use antelope horn when performing chod. According to my most respected Chod Lama, this may not be as effective in calling the Dakinis, but it is effective for calling nature spirits, such Lords of the Earth, Nagas, Tsen, Nyen, Elementals/Bhuta, etc. These can be sourced quite cheaply on-line at eBay under "African Antelope horn." Or at least they were easy and cheap to get 3-4 years ago. All you need to turn one of these into a "bugle" is a hack-saw. Actually, you can source all kinds of samaya substances on eBay.
:good: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Especially the part on making a habit of gathering substances and keeping them in a safe place. This is something that I learned from some VERY senior students, which is not something we hear very often in teachings. But I think it is very important. Thanks :namaste:

Actually, a related story I learned from a senior practitioner whom I look up to very much: he gathered hundreds of different sacred substances over decades, kept them in a treasure vase... then promptly offered the vase to lamas constructing a stupa and had it buried inside of the stupa. He sent me a Word document several pages long with a list of all of the sunstances, it's truly inconceivable what is in there! Now he has restarted his substance gathering quest all over again. But many many beings are benefitting from this effort.

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:21 am

For sure I collect dud-tsi/men-drub, long-life and other types of blessed pills, etc., but I was also thinking about things like: vulture feathers, owl feathers, the skull from a black dog, wool from a black sheep, black cat poop, the thigh-bone from a man who was murdered by being stabbed with a knife, iron or steel from a knife or sword that had killed someone, the particular twig from a crow's nest that floats upstream when placed in a stream or brook, a kapala with no sutures, red cow's milk, weeping willow wood, poop from a red cow that has not touched the ground, crocodile claws, the pelt of a carnivorous animal with the claws still on, black sulfur, a rock from a charnel ground, ashes from a cremation fire, musk, first menstrual blood from a 16-year-old virgin, snake skin. You know, that kind of thing.

Many Westerners have no idea about all the samaya substances that used in the lay-jor sections of Vajrayana sadhanas!

P.S. Please don't ask what any of these are for.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:59 am

so, we just finished Troma Nagmo retreat with Tsering Norbu Rinpoche, dudjom tersar lama. We used human bone kapala, but I ordered a ceramic ones for sale for practicioners, who dont have.

Image

We used this one also in tsog. And we were talking with Rinpoche about this topic. Of course, best is to have real one. If not, this one is also good. And he said, some yogis in India use also kapalas made from coconut shell.

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Soma999 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:21 pm

To be very honest, if one can't do chod without any implement, then that's the real problem. Chod depends much more on who you are and what you do than what you hold.

Then, if one can practice Chod just by himself, herself, then, using specific tools can add to the ceremony. And this is the practitionner that empower his or her tools.

We don't live near a cremation ground, with bones everywhere. We live in the city for the most part. Our graveyard have nothing to do with cremation ground. We have to adapt. Do you know, do you have an idea where your bone kangling comes from ? A political prisonner ? A murder ? Something stealed ?

And if the bones comes from a real practionner, do you still have permission of this practitionner to use it ? Was it stealed ? I asked some chod practionner "do you know where the kangling comes from ?". When i hear "no", i'm just amazed. It can comes from a trafic with some university. Do you reflect on what you do and the consequences it can have ?

Now we do things just the opposite. We don't care about the practitionner, but all the emphasis is on the tools. Do you have this malas in 9 precious stones ? This robes in silk with gold ? Do you have this special kangling ? This damaru with gold, bones and all the stuff ? You can't be a real practionner without, didn't you know ?

The one who is winning with all this things on stuff is the seller, for sure.

I don't think many wandering yogis had all those stuff. But they had courage, they had knowledge, they had dedication. They had compassion. And they put all their mind in their practice. And then, with or without stuff, it works.

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Re: Fossil Kangling/Kapala?

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:38 pm

Soma999 wrote:To be very honest, if one can't do chod without any implement, then that's the real problem. Chod depends much more on who you are and what you do than what you hold.

Then, if one can practice Chod just by himself, herself, then, using specific tools can add to the ceremony. And this is the practitionner that empower his or her tools.

We don't live near a cremation ground, with bones everywhere. We live in the city for the most part. Our graveyard have nothing to do with cremation ground. We have to adapt. Do you know, do you have an idea where your bone kangling comes from ? A political prisonner ? A murder ? Something stealed ?

And if the bones comes from a real practionner, do you still have permission of this practitionner to use it ? Was it stealed ? I asked some chod practionner "do you know where the kangling comes from ?". When i hear "no", i'm just amazed. It can comes from a trafic with some university. Do you reflect on what you do and the consequences it can have ?

Now we do things just the opposite. We don't care about the practitionner, but all the emphasis is on the tools. Do you have this malas in 9 precious stones ? This robes in silk with gold ? Do you have this special kangling ? This damaru with gold, bones and all the stuff ? You can't be a real practionner without, didn't you know ?

The one who is winning with all this things on stuff is the seller, for sure.

I don't think many wandering yogis had all those stuff. But they had courage, they had knowledge, they had dedication. They had compassion. And they put all their mind in their practice. And then, with or without stuff, it works.

oh, c´mon!! no one in this thread ever suggested, you can not do practice without implements. the topic is quite different.

and also, where is it said, that kangling and kapala should be from practicioner and good person?

my lama used to prepare kapalas for other lamas. he simply walk by Ganges and looked for skulls. if he find, he chcecked if they are with proper marks and took them home. he didnt know, if those were from practicioner, good person or murderer.

also, when i got my first human bones mala, i took it to ChNNR. i got it in Merigar, during retreat. i wasnt still shure if it is from human bones, so i went to Rinpoche and asked him for blessing. He said, that "we dont know if it was good person, or not, if it was male, or female....we know it was human being..." not mentions anything else, he blessed my new mala.

i did chod for years without kangling and kapala. i recieved my first kangling last year only, it came to me somehow.

anyway, even if it is still possible to do chod without damaru, ectr, but it has more effect and power to do it with....

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