May I too remain... ...here?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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tomschwarz
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May I too remain... ...here?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:28 pm

dear freinds
myself, nearly 83 years, not much time left, perhaps next few years, i can be active, then i go... if there is heaven i may go heaven, if not i will reborn on this planet
his holiness the dalai lama then repeats his intention, after shantideva:
so long space remain, so long sentient being's suffering remain, i will remain, try to make little contribution for peace of mind
56:00


did shantideva mean remain in samsara? or simply remain helpful? what do you think "remain" means? typically it means to stay where you are...
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Vasana
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by Vasana » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:37 pm

Nirvana in Mahayana is different to that of Theravada. The one sided cessation of arhats is not aimed for in order to benefit beings through the rupa-kayas.

https://soraj.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/ ... g-nirvana/

Shantideva was said to be an emanation of Manjushri so it's not that the appearance of Shantideva's or of any being is remaining or going anywhere.

There is a chapter in the Prajnaparamita in 10000 lines that examines what exactly the nature of a Bodhisattva is and what the term 'Bodhisattva' actually refers to.

Our usual tendency is to think of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and beings in terms of entities or non-entities and a whole host of other designations but thankfully the Prajnaparamita pulls all of these mistaken views from under our feet. With this and the relative truth of a Bodhisattva's aspirations, vows and powers we can approach a closer understanding of what it is that is aspiring to remain and what exactly the nature of that 'remaining' means.
.
  • 5.139 Then, the Blessed One addressed Senior Śāradvatī­putra in the following words: “Śāradvatī­putra, why do you say that the designation of physical forms does not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the designations of feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness do not constitute a bodhisattva? Why do you say that the designation of physical forms as permanent or impermanent does not constitute a bodhisattva? Similarly, why do you say that the designation of physical forms as imbued with happiness or suffering, their designation as a self or not a self, their designation as empty or not empty, their designation as with signs or signless, their designation as having aspirations or lacking aspirations, their designation as calm or not calm, their designation as void or not void, their designation as afflicted or purified, their designation as arising [F.48.b] or ceasing, and their designation as entities or non-entities [do not constitute a bodhisattva]? In the same vein, why do you say that these same designations, made with respect to feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness, up to and including their designation as entities or non-entities, do not constitute a bodhisattva?

    5.140
    “In like manner, why do you say that the designation of the eyes does not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the designations of the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mental faculty do not constitute a bodhisattva? Likewise, why do you say that the designation of the eyes as permanent or impermanent does not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the designations of the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mental faculty as permanent or impermanent does not constitute a bodhisattva? In the same vein, why do you say that these [remaining] designations made with respect to the eyes, up to and including their designation as entities or non-entities, do not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that these [remaining] designations made with respect to the ears, nose, tongue, body, and mental faculty, up to and including their designation as entities or non-entities, do not constitute a bodhisattva?

    5.141
    “In like manner, why do you say that the designation of sights does not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the designations of sounds, odors, tastes, tangibles, and mental phenomena do not constitute a bodhisattva? Why do you say that the designation of sights as permanent or impermanent does not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the designations of sounds, odors, tastes, tangibles, and mental phenomena as permanent or impermanent do not constitute a bodhisattva? In the same vein, why do you say that the [remaining] designations made with respect to sights, up to and including their designation as entities or non-entities, do not constitute a bodhisattva, and similarly, that the [remaining] designations made with respect to sounds, odors, tastes, tangibles, and mental phenomena, up to and including their designation as entities or non-entities, do not constitute a bodhisattva?

    5.142
    “Why do you say that
    [...]
    [...]
    [...]
http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-031-002.html
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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tomschwarz
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:53 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:37 pm
Nirvana in Mahayana is different to that of Theravada. The one sided cessation of arhats is not aimed for in order to benefit beings through the rupa-kayas.
this post is about what you and i want to do when we die. if you recite shantideva's intention, then you want to "remain" to help all sentient beings overcome suffering. so do you want to "remain"? remain where? in static nirvana, in non-abiding nirvana? or in samsara?

thanks for the links. from that blog:
The arhats believe that there is such a distinction and they forever remain on the side of the static nirvana. The Buddhas and highly realized Bodhisattvas, on the other hand, do not remain in this static condition, for they are always motivated by their bodhicitta vows to help ferry sentient beings across to the other shore. So they cannot remain completely still and static. They have to move and act.
its an interesting question, if you attain enlightenment, do you act or not... but only in a playful way, for a buddhist who is too antsy to meditate. if we meditate with single pointed concentration (samatha) and place our attention (vipasana) on permeating all things without discrimination, i dare say the answer/question/context will become obsolete. ...because permeating all things without discrimination leaves no stone unturned.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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TharpaChodron
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:42 am

But if samsara and nirvana are no different on the ultimate level, there is no where to go or to remain, right? The HHDL speaks on the conventional level to relate to his audience, but ultimately he knows for a Buddha there is no going or coming and no samsara or nirvana that is distinct from each other.

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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:09 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:42 am
But if samsara and nirvana are no different on the ultimate level, there is no where to go or to remain, right? The HHDL speaks on the conventional level to relate to his audience, but ultimately he knows for a Buddha there is no going or coming and no samsara or nirvana that is distinct from each other.
"no where to go or to remain" if you are enlightened (e.g. now or after death, "go to heaven" like his holiness the dalai lama of tibet said). but if you are not enlightened and subject to the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, there is (the very "real" illusion of) somewhere to go, rebirth...

...that is why this question is so interesting... ...to be reborn, according to the tibetan book of the dead, would mean, sadly, that in the dreamy chaos that arises after the dawning of the ground luminosity (shortly after 4 dissolutions/process of dying), that we have no idea what is going on - ignorant of that. we do not acknowledge that all that we see is our mind... so then comes this fundamental ignorance, attachment to self, and ultimately rebirth.

so what i am looking for, is to discuss with someone who would say that a true altruistic intention would motivate rebirth ("remain") as opposed to enlightenment (go way beyond, permeate all things without discrimination, etc...)
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Vasana
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:35 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:09 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:42 am
But if samsara and nirvana are no different on the ultimate level, there is no where to go or to remain, right? The HHDL speaks on the conventional level to relate to his audience, but ultimately he knows for a Buddha there is no going or coming and no samsara or nirvana that is distinct from each other.
"no where to go or to remain" if you are enlightened (e.g. now or after death, "go to heaven" like his holiness the dalai lama of tibet said). but if you are not enlightened and subject to the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, there is (the very "real" illusion of) somewhere to go, rebirth...

[...]so what i am looking for, is to discuss with someone who would say that a true altruistic intention would motivate rebirth ("remain") as opposed to enlightenment (go way beyond, permeate all things without discrimination, etc...)
Maybe you are thinking of the three different kinds of Bodhisattva aspiration? Specifically the sheperd like aspiration? Does the misconception listed here apply to your thinking or not?
  • 'A commonly repeated misconception in Western literature is that bodhisattvas delay their own liberation. This confusion is based on a misreading of several different scriptural concepts and narratives. One of these is the Tibetan teaching on three types of motivation for generating bodhicitta. According to Patrul Rinpoche's 19th century Words of My Perfect Teacher (Kun bzang bla ma'i gzhal lung), a bodhisattva might be motivated in one of three ways. They are:

    king-like bodhicitta - to aspire to become a buddha first in order to then help sentient beings
    boatman-like bodhicitta - to aspire to become a buddha at the same time as other sentient beings
    shepherd-like bodhicitta - to aspire to become a buddha only after all other sentient beings have done so

    These three are not types of people, but rather types of motivation. According to Patrul Rinpoche, the third quality of intention is most noble though the mode by which buddhahood actually occurs is the first; that is, it is only possible to teach others the path to enlightenment once one has attained enlightenment oneself. [26] The ritualized formulation of the bodhisattva vow also reflects this order (becoming a buddha so that one can then teach others to do the same). A bodhisattva vow ritual text attributed to Nāgārjuna, of the second-third century CE, states the vow as follows: "Just as the past tathāgata arhat samyaksambuddhas, when engaging in the behavior of a bodhisattva, generated the aspiration to unsurpassed complete enlightenment so that all beings be liberated, all beings be freed, all beings be relieved, all beings attain complete nirvana, all beings be placed in omniscient wisdom, in the same way, I whose name is so-and-so, from this time forward, generate the aspiration to unsurpassed complete enlightenment so that all beings be liberated, all beings be freed, all beings be relieved, all beings attain complete nirvana, all beings be placed in omniscient wisdom." [27]

    Another reason for the misconception that a bodhisattva "delays" Buddhahood is that a bodhisattva rejects the liberation of the śravaka and pratyekabuddha, described in Mahāyāna literature as either inferior (as in Asaṅga's fourth century Yogācārabhūmi) or nonexistent (as in the Lotus Sūtra). [28] That a bodhisattva has the option to pursue such a lesser path, but instead chooses the long path towards buddhahood is one of the five criteria for one to be considered a bodhisattva. The other four are: being human, being a man, making a vow to become a buddha in the presence of a previous buddha, and receiving a prophecy from that buddha.'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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tomschwarz
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by tomschwarz » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:11 pm

Yes Vasana, that is exactly it. Thank you very much for the text/framework.

.... So does anyone think, even for the purpose of interesting discussion, that the Shepard like aspiration was the intention behind Shantidevas prayer to remain?

Or simply that you in your heart hold this Shepard aspiration?

Or simply that it could be right, better to stay in samsara and help others along, rather than becoming enlightened?

The reason I am against the Shepard aspiration (remaining in samsara) is 1) the blind leading the blind (remaining in samsara means remaining in fundamental ignorance ?) and 2) permeating a being without discrimination (buddhahood) has got to be key in understanding them.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by kirtu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:15 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:11 pm
Yes Vasana, that is exactly it. Thank you very much for the text/framework.

.... So does anyone think, even for the purpose of interesting discussion, that the Shepard like aspiration was the intention behind Shantidevas prayer to remain?

Or simply that you in your heart hold this Shepard aspiration?

Or simply that it could be right, better to stay in samsara and help others along, rather than becoming enlightened?

The reason I am against the Shepard aspiration (remaining in samsara) is 1) the blind leading the blind (remaining in samsara means remaining in fundamental ignorance ?) and 2) permeating a being without discrimination (buddhahood) has got to be key in understanding them.
Well the Shepard aspiration has the result that you actually quickly become liberated. The aspiration itself may have the result that you send lots of emanations back into samsara to liberate all beings.

I had thought that Tulku Thondup had addressed this in one of this books but I can't find the reference.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by Ayu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:29 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:11 pm
Yes Vasana, that is exactly it. Thank you very much for the text/framework.

.... So does anyone think, even for the purpose of interesting discussion, that the Shepard like aspiration was the intention behind Shantidevas prayer to remain?

Or simply that you in your heart hold this Shepard aspiration?

Or simply that it could be right, better to stay in samsara and help others along, rather than becoming enlightened?

The reason I am against the Shepard aspiration (remaining in samsara) is 1) the blind leading the blind (remaining in samsara means remaining in fundamental ignorance ?) and 2) permeating a being without discrimination (buddhahood) has got to be key in understanding them.
The term "to stay in samsara" does not fit. Someone who stays in samsara (is part of Samsara) eventually cannot offer real help.
So, the aim is to become fully enlightened and to choose rebirth by own free will in order to help the suffering beings.
As a Buddha, one is beyond samsara mentally.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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tomschwarz
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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Hiho Ayu. "The term "to stay in samsara" does not fit. Someone who stays in samsara (is part of Samsara) eventually cannot offer real help."

Ok too much agreement ))) i will be the devils advocate. Riddle me this my dear friend Ayu and others willing to wax poetic.... Sidartha Gautama was born in Samsara, achieved enlightenment, and helped others a great deal here. How do you harmonize this Buddhist Dahrma (in fact the history of the birth of Buddhism) with the idea that being in samsara is to be in fundamental ignorance and Ayu's greater statement?

And for the record, while I am 100% for enlightenment as far as this thread is concerned, I actually believe what Kirt wrote about Sheppard Aspiration

"The aspiration itself may have the result that you send lots of emanations back into samsara to liberate all beings" true that....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: May I too remain... ...here?

Post by Ayu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:07 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:25 pm
...
Ok too much agreement ))) i will be the devils advocate. Riddle me this my dear friend Ayu and others willing to wax poetic.... Sidartha Gautama was born in Samsara, achieved enlightenment, and helped others a great deal here. How do you harmonize this Buddhist Dahrma (in fact the history of the birth of Buddhism) with the idea that being in samsara is to be in fundamental ignorance and Ayu's greater statement?
....
I was trying to say: after Buddha reached enlightment he was not part of samsara anymore.

(My thesis is: samsara is a mental state, not really a physical one.)

So, when you became a Buddha you are not tossed about by suffering anymore. You left samsara mentally. You're free to help others as far as possible. And it is said, this is the only state of mind that enables to help the beings really.
:tongue: This is primary school Mahayana. :sage:
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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