Accept, respect, love, gone

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:11 pm

Simon E. wrote: That context will be as part of a raft of other practices that balance each other and will ALWAYS be in the context of a personal relationship with a teacher. Or they are not really Vajrayana.
Simon do you accept that "really Vajrayana" and "not realy Vajrayana are temporary?

Soon there will be no Vajrayana, no Buddism, no Buddhist books, no people, no earth, no solor system, no human history, no history of religion and so on. When the sun explodes. That will happen. And before that a super volcano or asteroid may accomplish much of the same.

So why is it still a good idea to practice, specifically, the real Vajrayana?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:53 pm

As usual tomschwartz I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at. This is no doubt my problem.

So I will have to leave it to others to answer you.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

muni
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by muni » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:46 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:00 pm
muni wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:40 pm

May I ask, impartial respect-acceptance and strong individuality, how this goes together?

Ps Fleeting posts, topic?
Ya i got this muni.... The child has the fire. To create, to project his/herself, the theater, then their reality is waking sleeping dreams friends yummy food creative food school home mom and dad tv music projects and so on. School and girls/boys, "am i smart?", "my idea is...", "my interest is ... because ...", "beautiful is...", "happiness is...", "meaningful is...", choosing subjects in university or drugs (because life is cruel) or arts or (and or) relationships, science, religion atheism wicken devil worship, physics, discovery, etc...

In parallel is the mother and father looking at this. And they could do harm, be neutral or do good. As his holiness the dalai lama often reminds us, we must not do harm. We should try to do good, if that is not possible, be neutral. So basic meditation (accepting reality) will show us that, if we want to do any good for our children, it starts with respect: those children are actually people with perspectives and ego and so on. And human cycles of experience (e.g. an hour, a day, a year, a lunch, a walk, etc...) when happy, start with ideas and those ideas must be respected and wholeheartedly supported, with a bare minimum of wise suggestions. The way to respect a childs ideas is to listen to them with the empty tender heart. So no elefant here. We are building self confidence, and self efficacy (abity ro do stuff/get stuff done) by listening and feeling what our child feels by silence of mind and empty heart (means place for child)

Getting rid of self comes later. So the plan for our children should be: self is safe, self discovery, others are important too, self expression, then buddism (accept respect love gone).

So the answer to you question, if there were "12 links of dependent enlightenment " for humans, they would sit like a rainbow with strong individuality being the ground work for the opposite: buddhism. The former helps us feel that we are no longer (even potentially) hungry for doing anything.

So admins here delete posts )))))) i like that, i hope that you do too. ...a reminder of impermanence and that soon the sun will destroy every trace of everything anywhere near our solor system (even my bank). And the only thing we have that is worth anything in the face if that is loving kindness/wisdom/meditation. So deleting a post that appears to be negative, great thanks. I hope they delete this one )))))) ...but read first....
Thank you, I have read it.
I think it is easy to mix by talking on a forum, the two wings of the Bodhichitta bird. This is a big mistake and I am one who is guilty of that. Because for example Rushan in order to see the difference between dream and sleep for oneself, is own business. Purify own perception and have place in the very heart for all ( so to speak). But even this has no value to say. It is a sign of not having skills to inspire and the idea it inspires, is an idea.

At least there is the need to first help oneself. Tsoknyi Rinpoche his words about essence love, I will try to find some of it on the internet. He talked once about emotional suffering. Then respect-love are blocked.

It is necessary to see/ know such in order to offer helpful dharma. for example: "If I don’t understand the culture—whether we’re talking about European culture, or Japanese culture, or Chinese culture, or modern culture broadly—it’s very hard to bring Dharma into people’s lives."
https://www.lionsroar.com/reconnecting- ... -rinpoche/
“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves” H H Dalai Lama

"Relax."

kausalya
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:48 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am
Hello friends,

Should I accept everything as is (meditate, see dependent origination of all things, all things are empty of inherent existence, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of sameness, etc...)?

Should I change something (tackle conflicted mental states, learn to love others with tonglen practice, quiet my mind, practice ethics, get off of the path of the hatred and anger and adopt the 8 fold path instead)?

Or do both? If yes, how does that work for you? E.g. accept anger, let is dissipate naturally, then it no longer returns? Or repeat that process ad infinitum?
How about accepting everything received from others as manifestations of their suffering/wish to be free, but changing your own mind and behaviour so that this acceptance doesn't cause you yourself to suffer & you can be of genuine help?
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:05 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:48 pm
tomschwarz wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am
Hello friends,

Should I accept everything as is (meditate, see dependent origination of all things, all things are empty of inherent existence, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of sameness, etc...)?

Should I change something (tackle conflicted mental states, learn to love others with tonglen practice, quiet my mind, practice ethics, get off of the path of the hatred and anger and adopt the 8 fold path instead)?

Or do both? If yes, how does that work for you? E.g. accept anger, let is dissipate naturally, then it no longer returns? Or repeat that process ad infinitum?

How about accepting everything received from others as manifestations of their suffering/wish to be free, but changing your own mind and behaviour so that this acceptance doesn't cause you yourself to suffer & you can be of genuine help?
Ah now i see, the two pists are merged into one....

kausalya amazing advice. It is something that i am focusing on these days. Great timing.

Honestly )))), and sadly this part "changing your own mind and behaviour so that this acceptance doesn't cause you yourself to suffer" .... i know how it should work, happiness in others achievements and compassion for their sitaution when they are in pain, but it is not so easy when someone does not love you that is suppose to love you.

Patience, kindness, generosity, meditation and wisdom should help me. Are there other things?
.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:15 am

....what is it to be loved? Feeling not alone, feeling kind attention from other, feeling pleasurable physical contact.

So that is where "gone" comes in. Because when i am not "gone"when i am here, very much forging on with the futile attempts at immortal empire, i need love.

Then its about me, my needs, and so on. So how can i care for you, in tge final analysis? Something has to go. Right?

Other ideas?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

kausalya
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:30 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:05 am
it is not so easy when someone does not love you that is suppose to love you.
Think about that statement again... it would be nice if everyone loved you, but we're conditioned by karma. We can't say that anyone is "supposed to" love us; we can only say that we wish they did.

We may also be able to say that this expectation comes from others in society, but these are also samsaric beings who are scrambling for anything to end their suffering, without comprehending the actual way to accomplish that (& that happiness/suffering originate in the mind).

To collect merit of the kind that will earn the respect/admiration of others, contemplate what it would be like to work for their benefit withour expectation, whether they love you or acknowledge you or not. Then think about how you would feel to come across someone with no ulterior motives, who only cares about enriching your happiness. Resolve to become that person...
tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:15 am
....what is it to be loved? Feeling not alone, feeling kind attention from other, feeling pleasurable physical contact.

So that is where "gone" comes in. Because when i am not "gone"when i am here, very much forging on with the futile attempts at immortal empire, i need love.

Then its about me, my needs, and so on. So how can i care for you, in tge final analysis? Something has to go. Right?

Other ideas?

The four forms of generosity are Dharma (or truthful/appropriate advice), material goods, love, and fearlessness.

Love is best described as the heartfelt desire for others to be happy, and a commitment to act in ways that don't harm them, but support them to find temporal/ultimate happiness originating from within themselves.

You desire love, and we're taught that we "need" to receive it, but it's not true. Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive.

The best we can do is work to create the conditions for receiving that kind of support, which means offering all kinds of support to others... whatever they need from us, as long as it won't harm the basic aspects of our livelihood.

What has to go is your grasping at worldly comfort/grasping at a self. That's truly the futile part, because there is no guarantee that anything will manifest in this life, and there is the guarantee that we will lose this body, along with everything we currently enjoy, at death. At least, try to entertain the idea of laying the groundwork for future lives of service through the Dharma.

Cultivate joy at your ability to serve others, and that's all there is to it -- in this sense, it's not about us, but about all other beings.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

SunWuKong
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by SunWuKong » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:19 pm

So, how this goes is, tomorrow a doctor could run some tests and tell you how many weeks you have left to live. Maybe you could accept that, but suppose it wasn't you, but the person you love most in the world getting this diagnosis. You can't imagine that a day beyond the immediate future exists. When he/she dies, essentially you to die. No time left for guru to add squat to your situation, no time for practice or enlightenment. It's done, it's over. Everything we discuss here is reliant on continuing to live, which by no means is at all certain. This is what a crown prince Sidhartha grappled with, and why he left everything behind, its not about nihilism or negativity or anything else. Its about the gap that exists in this moment, from now, until its gone. Its profound to fully understand that this entire world is filled with nothing but a dead-end of dukkha. That's exactly where you quit adding to it, to the misery of it. Its not simply "letting go" - its a confrontation with death itself and the fragility and uncertainty and relative meaninglessness of life as we know it.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Aku
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by Aku » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:36 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am
Hello friends,

Should I accept everything as is (meditate, see dependent origination of all things, all things are empty of inherent existence, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of sameness, etc...)?

Should I change something (tackle conflicted mental states, learn to love others with tonglen practice, quiet my mind, practice ethics, get off of the path of the hatred and anger and adopt the 8 fold path instead)?

Or do both? If yes, how does that work for you? E.g. accept anger, let is dissipate naturally, then it no longer returns? Or repeat that process ad infinitum?
Well, you live in it...

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:57 pm

kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:30 am
tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:05 am
it is not so easy when someone does not love you that is suppose to love you.
Think about that statement again... it would be nice if everyone loved you, but we're conditioned by karma. We can't say that anyone is "supposed to" love us; we can only say that we wish they did.

We may also be able to say that this expectation comes from others in society, but these are also samsaric beings who are scrambling for anything to end their suffering, without comprehending the actual way to accomplish that (& that happiness/suffering originate in the mind).

To collect merit of the kind that will earn the respect/admiration of others, contemplate what it would be like to work for their benefit withour expectation, whether they love you or acknowledge you or not. Then think about how you would feel to come across someone with no ulterior motives, who only cares about enriching your happiness. Resolve to become that person...
tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:15 am
....what is it to be loved? Feeling not alone, feeling kind attention from other, feeling pleasurable physical contact.

So that is where "gone" comes in. Because when i am not "gone"when i am here, very much forging on with the futile attempts at immortal empire, i need love.

Then its about me, my needs, and so on. So how can i care for you, in tge final analysis? Something has to go. Right?

Other ideas?

The four forms of generosity are Dharma (or truthful/appropriate advice), material goods, love, and fearlessness.

Love is best described as the heartfelt desire for others to be happy, and a commitment to act in ways that don't harm them, but support them to find temporal/ultimate happiness originating from within themselves.

You desire love, and we're taught that we "need" to receive it, but it's not true. Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive.

The best we can do is work to create the conditions for receiving that kind of support, which means offering all kinds of support to others... whatever they need from us, as long as it won't harm the basic aspects of our livelihood.

What has to go is your grasping at worldly comfort/grasping at a self. That's truly the futile part, because there is no guarantee that anything will manifest in this life, and there is the guarantee that we will lose this body, along with everything we currently enjoy, at death. At least, try to entertain the idea of laying the groundwork for future lives of service through the Dharma.

Cultivate joy at your ability to serve others, and that's all there is to it -- in this sense, it's not about us, but about all other beings.
Very, very interesting Kausalya. I wish i knew who you were because your post has the heart level advice of a great master and yet the tone of a younger person. But how did you get to that point? Could you please say something about how you came to know all of the points that you made above?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:16 am

kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:30 am

You desire love, and we're taught that we "need" to receive it, but it's not true. Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive.
...one more point/question to add... "we're taught that we "need" to receive it (...love...), but its not true"

First off, as his holiness the dalai lama says in almost every teaching, the most important thing for children (for them to have a good future) is maximum affection from the mother. also the 100 syllyble prayer to vajrasatva has that wish "let me be loved". or maybe "be loving to me" https://www.bodhicittasangha.org/100-syllable-mantra/

But second and deeper point, this is actually a logical flaw (i think) that even his holiness the dalai lama makes and i think is endemic in buddhism.. you then wrote,
"Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive." ...the logical flaw is that both can be true. You can need something and then you do not get it. CTR I think understood that and called it sambhogakaya. The point is that both together can be a relatively stable condition. Another example, you can exist even though you will soon stop existing.

Just because something will not exist forever, that is no ground to say that it does not exist (now). And just because I will die soon, is not ground to assume that I am not alive now. And just becuse Karma is a law within mental experience where my mental outlook reflects back on me, is no ground for saying I do not truly need love... ...all that stuff exists actually just as it is, even fundamental ignorance. That is the first statement in my personal experience of the Dharma: accept.

Works? No?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:50 am

H H Dalai Lama said as well, if we do not receive love in childhood, it will be hard to be caring. Still those who are not able to love, are seen as "bad ones", while they themselves are already victim, having been deprived from any needful care or kindness and are thereby empty of possibility to care themselves.

For example fellows in prisons. Often there were already big problems in their childhood, by the child or due to lacking any care, any warmth. They need very much loving kindness and should not be threaten as badness because of lacking warmth. This is only risking to feed their suffering even more.
But tell that someone: those who commited so much harm, need care! Pardon? Very, very difficult but still necessary.

There is no inherent bad one, said H H Dalai Lama.

Fortunately, now there is here and there a growing attention to learn them to be there for another, instead of being enclosed in "own bad label". They need to know the responsibility of their deed, but as well lots of care so that they find own caring abilities, which will give some ease.

Children need to be loved, or it will damage them. Without being fed with kindness and care, there cannot flow any warmth from the child so easy. Blaming the child for that is risking to make it worse.
“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves” H H Dalai Lama

"Relax."

kausalya
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:31 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:16 am
kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:30 am

You desire love, and we're taught that we "need" to receive it, but it's not true. Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive.
...one more point/question to add... "we're taught that we "need" to receive it (...love...), but its not true"

First off, as his holiness the dalai lama says in almost every teaching, the most important thing for children (for them to have a good future) is maximum affection from the mother. also the 100 syllyble prayer to vajrasatva has that wish "let me be loved". or maybe "be loving to me" https://www.bodhicittasangha.org/100-syllable-mantra/

But second and deeper point, this is actually a logical flaw (i think) that even his holiness the dalai lama makes and i think is endemic in buddhism.. you then wrote,
"Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that our karma is what it is, and nothing is ordained for us to receive." ...the logical flaw is that both can be true. You can need something and then you do not get it.
On an intellectual level, you're correct. Thank you for pointing this out.

Love and affection are certainly desirable, needed for optimal functioning/development in humans and others. It is best if we do receive it. But if we don't, rather than focusing on our unfulfilled desire, we need to take it as part of the path and contemplate how we can create better conditions for others and ourselves.

The present condition where we aren't being loved arose from the previous cause where we denied love to others & separated them from their companions. We can't change that reality without attaining mental flexibility to see beyond our karmic conditioning (the voice that tells us "I need to be loved and I'm not getting it"), and this flexibility comes from exchanging self with other.

As Shantideva says,
"All the suffering there is in this world arises from wishing our self to be happy. All the happiness there is in this world arises from wishing others to be happy."
I hope this is enough to help you begin to change your focus.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:11 pm

Thank you for the quote of Shantideva Kausalya. I cannot other than agree that to stop the feeding of 'the grasping idea' and its unfulfilled desire, is to open our heart for all.
Love and affection are certainly desirable, needed for optimal functioning/development in humans and others. It is best if we do receive it. But if we don't, rather than focusing on our unfulfilled desire, we need to take it as part of the path and contemplate how we can create better conditions for others and ourselves.
Why I posted that about children who got no loving care and will be harmed is because H H Dalai Lama gave these among few others as a reason why realizing the Buddha's meaning could be impossible ( temporary). Then even this good advice: stop now to focus on what you are and never got, open now just your very heart for all, is great but sometimes not sufficient to feed a seed. What when the water is not penetrating?
Tong Len, meditation on Compassion..excluding no anyone. Fine for us.
Again the example of the prisoners. Some of them are proud of the harm they did, even telling they enjoyed it.

How would you help to arose at least some little affection? Since not being able to love, care, isn't that very much suffering? And all have Buddha Nature, no anyone deserve to suffer. :hug:

Giving examples and giving affection sounds the easiest, but can be as well not effective, regarding H H, it can be used to take disadvantage.

Accept, what is not possible right now, to not create expectations? Just so? Just open the very heart, and no acceptation must be added since all is embraced? All is fine?
“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves” H H Dalai Lama

"Relax."

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