Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
stevie
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:21 pm

Rick wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 am
Per Buddhism, what does "to exist" mean? Can this be answered (satisfactorily) without reference to the two truths? If so, please do. :namaste:
Since there are different views in different buddhist traditions there are certainly different meanings of 'to exist'. E.g. some see causality being the basis for existence whereas others say that causality reveals the assumption of existence to be baseless.
As a consequence there must be different connotations of 'to exist' involved because one meaning is compatible with causal dependence within the sphere of some minds while the other meaning is not so compatible with causal dependence in the sphere of some other minds.

your 'Per Buddhism' appears to be not specific enough.

In the context of everyday life ('Dharma in Everyday Life') it may be more relevant what intuitively/habitually happens in one's mind if one says or thinks 'This (or that) exists.' or 'This (or that) does not exists.' which is however only an instance of applying language and conceptuality. So this relevance in the context of everyday life is not restricted to 'to exist' but applies to all expressions of language.

White Lotus
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:56 pm

this here now, not me here now... this here now. reality is completely real and yet completely empty. cant separate emptiness from reality. to start with 'this' is it, then if you want this is here, this is there. 1 and yet 1 is consumed. only emptiness and yet totally real.

Muni, you have said... "neither this nor that". this and that are just words, just pointers, they don't touch reality. they point towards it. please Muni say some more about your "neither this nor that", is it totally real and yet empty?

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Jesse
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Existence

Post by Jesse » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:50 pm

It seems like you really need to define what is meant by "existence", I've seen answers pointing to a number of different topics related to existence. Inherent VS inherent existence (non-selfhood), others pointing to "reality" (EG: what is real, or unreal), and a number of other things.

At its core, I think you can say "existence" simply means being aware. An enlightened Buddha is aware, also the lowest being in the universe is just as aware. It's something that doesn't really change depending on knowledge, or wisdom.

By aware, I mean simply: No matter what arises, we instantly know of its presence, regardless of whether that recognition is rooted in ignorance, or wisdom this basic function of knowing, or 'seeing', simply exists.

Everything beyond this simple recognition are conceptual additions. You can't get away from this basic awareness as the root of everything else, so to exist simply means to be fundamentally aware. Without that, nothing else matters, because you can not have anything else without that awareness as a foundation.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
takso
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 11:08 am

Re: Existence

Post by takso » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:54 am

All realities and fallacies are in the mind,
All observations and perceptions are in the mind,
All labelling and stereotyping are in the mind,
What else is not in the mind?
You have a mind, I have a mind, and we all have respective minds, even a rock.

A mind is nothing but a vibrational frequency,
A vibrational frequency is nothing but energy,
Energy is nothing but a concept being conjured up by the mind.
But still, all arguments are trivial because the true culprit is the mind.

Ignorance is in the mind,
Enlightenment is in the mind,
If one could neuter the mind, all things will fizzle out and cease to exist or be,
This is the arising of a new paradigm that is a neutralised state of affairs,
In Buddhism, it is known as nibbāna.
~ Ignorance triumphs when wise men do nothing ~

muni
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:01 am

White Lotus wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:56 pm
this here now, not me here now... this here now. reality is completely real and yet completely empty. cant separate emptiness from reality. to start with 'this' is it, then if you want this is here, this is there. 1 and yet 1 is consumed. only emptiness and yet totally real.

Muni, you have said... "neither this nor that". this and that are just words, just pointers, they don't touch reality. they point towards it. please Muni say some more about your "neither this nor that", is it totally real and yet empty?

best wishes, Tom.
Neither this nor that can be explained in a variety as all things I guess. But whatever explained dharma, explains not what cannot be explained. Like you say about pointers.
What pops up right now is that thinking mind knows all kind of things ( seen as separate of itself) and by that this and that arises. Mind-thoughts cling to "apparitions".

While mind seeing into mind cannot be explained, without falling into separation appaerances-emptiness and therefore impossible.

Few inspirational quotes by Tilopa :meditate:
The mind's original nature is like space;
It pervades and embraces all things under the sun.
Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease,
Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo,
Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.
Although space has been designated "empty",
In reality it is inexpressible;
Although the nature of mind is called "clear light",
Its every ascription is baseless verbal fiction.
Gazing intently into the empty sky, vision ceases;
Likewise, when mind gazes into mind itself,
The train of discursive and conceptual thought ends..
When not useful, skip please.
Best wishes.
:meditate:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
His Holiness Dalai Lama.

White Lotus
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:33 pm

Neither this nor that can be explained in a variety as all things I guess.
"All things", yes, Muni, thank you. 'this' is the universe, 'here'... in Zen, 'this' is used to talk about "all things", though strictly speaking it could be seen as a subjective experience of the objective universe.

if we talk about emptiness we talk about "all things"/tathata. "this"/"here" is the subjective experience of the objective universe. it is a direct experience of Tathata, which is a direct experience of emptiness whether or not you know it.

Am I right in thinking that the two words 'this' and 'that' are not seen by you as ''all things'', because they are a subjective experience and couldn't possibly mean seeing ''all things''. yet I would argue that when you see one thing you see all things, and that seeing ''this'' here now I see all things, except self.

if I say that ''this'' here now is direct experience, it is experience of mind and reality directly seen or heard. if I argue for emptiness I sometimes deny the reality of things. if I argue for reality, I don't deny the emptiness of things. one coin with two sides.

if I say 'neither this nor that', nor any part of the tetralemma (this/that/neither, both, none), am I emphasising emptiness? if I say "this here now" I am emphasising tathata, or suchness, which in my opinion is just as important as emphasising emptiness.

Muni, why do you think that emphasising 'this' or 'that' is unhelpful, when it can give an appreciation of mind and reality. is it too subjective? or not empty enough for you?

ps dear Muni, thank you for you'r last reply. I hope you are well and enjoying the new year!

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:46 pm

Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.
so to not rely on words/thought but to directly experience the universe. silence? but if you have experience of no self you cannot abide in words or in silence. you cannot abide anywhere for long, not even in reality which is seen, or in emptiness which is known. they are one. and yet there is no abiding in them.

are you saying that the dharma is unknown and unknowable by words. I would say that words point towards the dharma, but don't embody it, they don't touch it, but nor do they miss it. a finger pointing towards the moon.

please Muni say more about the ineffable nature of dharma, the wordless nature of reality. thanks for the Tilopa quotes.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Am I right in thinking that the two words 'this' and 'that' are not seen by you as ''all things''
Yes. I meant explanations are in a variety of ways like for whatever to explain 'dharmas', dependent on what helps.

Best wishes White Lotus.
:meditate:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
His Holiness Dalai Lama.

muni
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:57 pm

say more about the ineffable nature of dharma, the wordless nature of reality.
Lol.

:anjali:
:meditate:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
His Holiness Dalai Lama.

muni
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:17 am

Muni, why do you think that emphasising 'this' or 'that' is unhelpful, when it can give an appreciation of mind and reality. is it too subjective? or not empty enough for you?
Analyzing has its temporary place in Buddhism to help us, for sure. I like for example the quote by Kalu Rinpoche;
We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything.
That is all.
Then what is going to prove what?
What is going to analyse what?
What is going to discriminate what?
What is going to compare? What?
What/where this and that?
are you saying that the dharma is unknown and unknowable by words. I would say that words point towards the dharma, but don't embody it, they don't touch it, but nor do they miss it. a finger pointing towards the moon.
Enlightened Nature, Masters are using words because it is tool that can reach our minds. Then each used word is to help to awaken, no other. As you say they are finger pointing, pointing to all as being moon reflections in the water, to be freed of clinging to extremes subject-object and so free from solid "whatever". Perhaps they are like all kind of helps used till their function exhausts automatically? And then Wisdoms' Compassion automatically starts to help?

:namaste: Please throw this chatter over your shoulder if of no any use. Thank you, White Lotus.
:meditate:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
His Holiness Dalai Lama.

White Lotus
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Analysing has its temporary place in Buddhism to help us
What is going to analyse what?
Analysing means using words and concepts, which point towards reality, but don't grasp it. reality can't be grasped, only seen, heard, felt, tasted, touched. but all this is using words as a pointer towards reality. the words don't touch that reality.

if I use the words 'this' and 'that' I have failed to observe things and instead have fallen into words. words prevent me from seeing things just as they are or aren't. so... simply by virtue of the fact that 'this' and 'that' are words they lead to mental elaboration and distract from direct experience.

if there is no one to do the analysing... what's the problem.

so I would say, this and that are helpful in pointing out reality, but reality can only be seen if the words this and that are discarded. reality is this reality, just as it is, but unless I see it, hear it, taste it, smell it, beyond words then I have not seen it. And yet people have always been surrounded by reality and are that reality, whether or not they are something or nothing.

you can sling me over you'r shoulder if you like dear Muni. once someone said to me: "this is it" and I replied, "no it isn't, this is just a word, it doesn't touch reality." unless we use a thorn to remove a thorn, we will be in pain.

if we say "all things" we need to observe all things and not think all things. thinking and words hide the reality of things. but without them we cannot be pointed towards reality. and yet we have always been immersed in reality.

thanks Muni, best wishes, Tom x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:27 pm

We live in illusion and the appearance of things.
I would say that we emerge from illusion into the reality of things. it is no longer a dream. it is real. visual objects can be grasped by the eye, when before they couldn't be.

There is a reality. We are that reality.
there is a reality. this reality, falling into words. but this means different things for different people. we are that reality and yet not I, me, myself or I am.

When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything.
yes! I think that's how you see it Muni?

That is all.
just words! but important pointers.


so Muni, I agree that this is not it, but believing in these words this is it can be very helpful. what matters is direct experience of the reality you started with.

dear Muni please take out your diamond sword and clarify my ignorance.

best wishes, Tom x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:29 am

Thank you White Lotus,
if I use the words 'this' and 'that' I have failed to observe things and instead have fallen into words. words prevent me from seeing things just as they are or aren't. so... simply by virtue of the fact that 'this' and 'that' are words they lead to mental elaboration and distract from direct experience.
Guru Rinpoche said stop labelling.
Tilopa: The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals.
Basic space: Labeling takes place in confusion, for what is nonexistent is taken to exist.
if we say "all things" we need to observe all things and not think all things. thinking and words hide the reality of things. but without them we cannot be pointed towards reality. and yet we have always been immersed in reality.
Words are like exit -way out things, but they themselves are not offering freedom from smoke when there is fire in the building. If we hold onto them, is this a disaster. But without them, we come not out in the open fresh air. Words are not liberating themselves, contain no truth themselves but are creations-fabrications pointing to "reality what is not created - not fabricated.

Write 'wisdom - ignorance' on water and their nature is revealed. They are actually same.
Within this ultimate womb of basic space, timelessly and spontaneously
present,
samsara is wholly positive, nirvana is positive.
Within the wholly positive expanse, samsara and nirvana have never Existed.

Sensory appearances are wholly positive, emptiness is positive.
Within the wholly positive expanse, appearances and emptiness
have never existed.

Birth and death are wholly positive, happiness and suffering are positive.
Within the wholly positive expanse, birth, death, happiness, and suffering
have never existed.

Self and other are wholly positive, affirmation and negation are positive.
Within the wholly positive expanse, self, other, affirmation, and negation have never existed.
if there is no one to do the analysing... what's the problem.
:smile:
:meditate:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
His Holiness Dalai Lama.

Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests