Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Simon E.
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Re: Existence

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:55 pm

I would suggest that “entering a state of non dual consciousness” implies a variety of eternalism.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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kirtu
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Re: Existence

Post by kirtu » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:55 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:55 pm
I would suggest that “entering a state of non dual consciousness” implies a variety of eternalism.
This is partly a language game. "Non-dual awareness/consciousness" could suggest some kind of eternalism but it doesn't have to. People are limited by language. We could have non-dual awareness of suffering for example (Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was asked by a friend what he saw when observing people and he said something like "vast suffering" [although it could have been a different response actually] but his response implied a non-duality with suffering [or liberation]).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:34 am

That is what I glean from my teachers. Agreeing with that sentiment does not imply that I have personal experience of that. I don’t. I suspect that few of us have.
Just accepting and agreeing is not going to liberate us from the idea what we are, yes. I do not suspect, lack that capacity.

Simon is Sherlock Holmes.
:smile:

I need all the 24 hours to see the working of own mind only, its a real cinema there but it is free entry.
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

Simon E.
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Re: Existence

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:45 am

Gnomic inscrutability is always a safe bet. People can imply realisation without stating anything overt.
Simply habitually adopting the tone of teacher will often be sufficient in a public forum.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:18 am

you don't have to take any of this seriously Muni. I am not qualified to talk about these things. I have no official certificate of enlightenment. I am an ignoramus and I probably don't know what I am talking about.
:namaste:

Not sure such certificate will help at time of death, being naked without any pocket to put the paper in it, without any pocket for the scripts or pc to safe the heard words.
I am not sure it would help to tell Yama wanting to throw me on the heap of my delusions; yes but you see, Yama, I am qualified. I know.

Thanks for inspirations.
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:56 am

Gnomic inscrutability is always a safe bet. People can imply realisation without stating anything overt.
Simply habitually adopting the tone of teacher will often be sufficient in a public forum.
I love Sherlock Holmes! :smile:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

Simon E.
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Re: Existence

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 am

Erm...Good for you? :shrug:
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:26 pm

simplifying a little: in non dual awareness there is no self to be eternal. also there seems to my limited mind to be no kind of "experience" in a strange kind of way. I think we could all be deceiving ourselves or others. there is a need for sensible critique and scrutiny. One of my brothers is a big fan of Sherlock Holmes! I am a fan of Muni and tend to tremble a little whenever i see Simon around. thats good! healthy respect keeps us all in line.

best wishes, Tom x

Muni i will read you'r reply to me more carefully when my library computer system is working properly again and when i can find a computer that works properly. :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Simon E.
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Re: Existence

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

I can assure that you have no need to be nervous of me.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:36 am

tend to tremble a little whenever i see Simon around. thats good!
i have not that problem whenever I see Simon around. Heart problems is not excluded for me.

I wish White Lotus a properly computer connection. Meanwhile all of us stay in touch. :heart:
*in non dual awareness there is no self to be eternal*
*Emaho*! Then no any problem any longer! I am going to safe this for ever.

:anjali:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

muni
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:06 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm
I can assure that you have no need to be nervous of me.
So very kind. :anjali:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

White Lotus
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:15 am

Dear Simon and Muni, nice posts, thank you! I appreciate you both. our library computer is a bit dickey at the moment, but I should be able to print out your post Muni and ponder it. so glad you have non dual awareness Muni!

dear friends, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:18 am

Dear Muni, we say that wisdom-compassion is inseperable, but can we say that duality-non duality is inseperable?

are you nothing-everything? surely 'what' is not 'who', what is 'awareness'. awareness, not nothing. sorry to be so bossy!

then again these are only words, fabrications, judgements. but words are only unhelpful from the perspective of non-duality. if duality complements non duality then fabrications can be helpful.

I don't think we can escape from words, they are naturally with us every day. thinking is natural. I would say 'just think', its all play.

what is you'r view on Tathata, suchness? do you still see things just as they are? I don't. its as if Tathata is no longer part of my awareness. there is just awareness. no object to be aware of. just awareness. and yet no absence of an object.

I hope you are well. I have read Drukpa Kunley's story. he is quite a character!

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Rinchen Samphel
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:47 am

Re: Existence

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 am

muni wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:56 am
Gnomic inscrutability is always a safe bet. People can imply realisation without stating anything overt.
Simply habitually adopting the tone of teacher will often be sufficient in a public forum.
I love Sherlock Holmes! :smile:
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 am
Erm...Good for you? :shrug:
muni wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:36 am
tend to tremble a little whenever i see Simon around. thats good!
i have not that problem whenever I see Simon around. Heart problems is not excluded for me.
muni wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:06 am
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

I can assure that you have no need to be nervous of me.
So very kind. :anjali:
LOL, literally, what the heck is this conversation? This is the best thing ever, i cant stop laughing, i need to visit this side of the forum more often! :rolling:

muni
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:29 am

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 am
muni wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:56 am
Gnomic inscrutability is always a safe bet. People can imply realisation without stating anything overt.
Simply habitually adopting the tone of teacher will often be sufficient in a public forum.
I love Sherlock Holmes! :smile:
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 am
Erm...Good for you? :shrug:
muni wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:36 am
tend to tremble a little whenever i see Simon around. thats good!
i have not that problem whenever I see Simon around. Heart problems is not excluded for me.
muni wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:06 am
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

I can assure that you have no need to be nervous of me.
So very kind. :anjali:
LOL, literally, what the heck is this conversation? This is the best thing ever, i cant stop laughing, i need to visit this side of the forum more often! :rolling:
No need to understand at all Rinchen, let there be joy. :smile:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

muni
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:04 am

Dear White Lotus,
Dear Muni, we say that wisdom-compassion is inseperable, but can we say that duality-non duality is inseperable?
Yes.
are you nothing-everything? surely 'what' is not 'who', what is 'awareness'. awareness, not nothing. sorry to be so bossy!
While even *Buddha* could/did not create or change true nature, makes clear that the idea there is "one" ( Atman) going to do that is the very distraction itself, which is clouding only. If it was this would imply there is an eternal or solid entity creating nondual awareness or clear light. While Clear Light is allowing true uncreated nature, to be revealed. Perhaps, all precious dharma methods are to see in different ways fake news?
then again these are only words, fabrications, judgements. but words are only unhelpful from the perspective of non-duality. if duality complements non duality then fabrications can be helpful.
Then these words are compassion- impartial love itself in action. :hug:
I don't think we can escape from words, they are naturally with us every day. thinking is natural. I would say 'just think', its all play.
:smile:
what is you'r view on Tathata, suchness? do you still see things just as they are? I don't. its as if Tathata is no longer part of my awareness. there is just awareness. no object to be aware of. just awareness. and yet no absence of an object.
Thank you.
best wishes, Tom x :anjali:

Best wishes to you Tom x :anjali:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

White Lotus
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:37 pm

are you nothing-everything? surely 'what' is not 'who', what is 'awareness'. awareness, not nothing. sorry to be so bossy!
ultimately awareness is not nothing, nor Is it anything other than awareness. it is not zero, it is not one, it is not two etc. and yet relatively speaking
awareness is zero, one, two etc.

the ultimate or absolute is beyond all designation, it is beyond understanding therefore it cannot be understood. all words and names, even the name awareness does not describe it. theres no need to understand, even God does not understand. there is no understanding in this place. the absolute is something one does not know because it doesn't even know itself. it is unknowing.

non duality and non judgement are tools to point us towards unknowing, to let us know that the absolute cannot be known.

non duality itself is an experience that cannot be separated from the dual. so I say non dual duality is the relative state of things. dual and non dual are mutually inseperable. No self - self cannot be separated. I feel no ''personal'' selfness however I still experience pleasure and pain. I have to protect this no self self, to sustain it with food and life skills. You cannot separate no self from notions of self. self - no self.

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:02 pm

While even *Buddha* could/did not create or change true nature, makes clear that the idea there is "one" ( Atman) going to do that is the very distraction itself, which is clouding only.
ultimately speaking everything we say is a playful distraction. we play with the 'one', Atman, big play, but still only play. only when we really know our true self can we go beyond it. break out of it. once it is gone, there is still concern about pain and discomfort. an element of 'self'ishness.

we need to use the relative words and descriptions in order to function and make things, in order to live. but all that is only a dream.
If it was this would imply there is an eternal or solid entity creating nondual awareness or clear light. While Clear Light is allowing true uncreated nature, to be revealed. Perhaps, all precious dharma methods are to see in different ways fake news?
Dharma is only fake news when we are trying to talk about the absolute which cannot be known? ultimately I'm not sure we can know much or anything about anything at all. we can only know relatively through the lense of judgement/words/fabrications. all relative knowledge is merely play.

we can see the clear stream of light we call non dual awareness, but like everything else we can't really understand it. we are like children playing with a sand castle. it is fun but the sand sometimes gets in our eyes. we don't understand the process but we just enjoy it.

the problem is thinking I can separate dual and non-dual. understanding and non-understanding. judgement and non-Judgement. self and no-self.

I find non-dual duality, no self self, understood non understanding, and judging non judgement.

in all the above I don't understand. nor do I have any notion that what I have said is in any sense true. it just seems right. please correct me Muni!

:rolleye:

best wishes, Tom x :heart:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:06 pm

Rinchen... a poem for you:

trust in yourself, open your heart... have a laugh.
its all just a game. just a joke, dancing.
watch the movie. come to an understanding and then forget it all.
nice!

love, Tom x

ps. you are going to need a good sense of humour! we all do. :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

tkp67
Posts: 602
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Existence

Post by tkp67 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:05 pm

as it makes sense in my mind based on my observations of the world and how they translate to my interpretation of Buddhism we are born into a temporary extension of an eternal cosmos

If I try to understand it in specific buddhist terms I see our existence the "eternal" part that remains is the ever present buddha mind that is identified as a latent buddha potential and the rest is a temporal instance of both mind and body

we are not defined by either or the combination but rather those conditions simply give rise to the mind in our particular existence

If this is reasonably congruent with the true interpretation and analogies help the real life parallel exists in computing

the OSI model and traditional computing pretty much work in this way giving rise to that descriptive so my intent is not to conflate or detract but rather share how my mind was able to attempt to make sense of it

How this interpretation effects me I do treat this existence as a unique gift and opportunity accordingly because my mind is not great enough to realize much past it nor am I attached to a desire to figure that one out to satiate my own mind. Whatever liberation I have experienced leaves me feeling as if I have been given so much that to begrudge what I have already experienced by expecting more is ungrateful and attachment to something unreasonable. I also must state that while I don't understand reincarnation and rebirth after this existence I do deeply sense karma as permeating this existence so poignantly that it drives my conscious.

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