Bad deeds with good intention

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Thu May 21, 2020 10:35 pm

Mirror wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 pm
The most of the lamas and buddhist teachers...
Stop trying to "convert" people to Veganism. You will save a lot of time for yourself and also for others. You will have to live with what Buddha said on the topic. From the point of view of Hinayana it is okay if it is not seen etc., from the point of view of Mahayana it is not and from Tantric point of view it is okay. This is it. Follow your teacher and let others follow theirs. Everybody is doing their best and we have to live with that. If you want perfection then you are out of luck. This is samsara. Listen to your teacher, listen to the teachings and do your own thing based on that.

Of course there is a lot of nuance and etc. like in everything else, but in the end there is no point trying to correct others behaviour. Now is time to follow my advice and shut up I guess.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by Mirror » Fri May 22, 2020 12:33 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:35 pm
Mirror wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 pm
The most of the lamas and buddhist teachers...
Stop trying to "convert" people to Veganism. You will save a lot of time for yourself and also for others. You will have to live with what Buddha said on the topic. From the point of view of Hinayana it is okay if it is not seen etc., from the point of view of Mahayana it is not and from Tantric point of view it is okay. This is it. Follow your teacher and let others follow theirs. Everybody is doing their best and we have to live with that. If you want perfection then you are out of luck. This is samsara. Listen to your teacher, listen to the teachings and do your own thing based on that.

Of course there is a lot of nuance and etc. like in everything else, but in the end there is no point trying to correct others behaviour. Now is time to follow my advice and shut up I guess.
I'm sorry, that wans't my intention at all. I'm just using it as an example. I just want to have better understanding of cause and effect (karma).
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun May 24, 2020 5:06 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:57 pm
Mirror wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:23 pm
Yes, that's true. I can't really tell what intention others have. So does the intention really matters?
For them it matters, because it will effect their karma vipaka.
Another example is that my grandmother once told me, that she would put all homosexuals in the jail and try to convince them to stop their homosexual behaviour, because she's confident that homosexuality is an illness and this way she want to cure homosexuality.... Her intention is good, but this will bring only harm to others. But there are many other examples.
How could it possibly be well-intentioned to stop people from following their natural sexual preferences?
that is an issue: "good" intention.

the principle of intention related to karma is a very high level thing, but really underestimated and trivialized.
Last edited by javier.espinoza.t on Sun May 24, 2020 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 24, 2020 5:09 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:06 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:57 pm
Mirror wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:23 pm
Yes, that's true. I can't really tell what intention others have. So does the intention really matters?
For them it matters, because it will effect their karma vipaka.
Another example is that my grandmother once told me, that she would put all homosexuals in the jail and try to convince them to stop their homosexual behaviour, because she's confident that homosexuality is an illness and this way she want to cure homosexuality.... Her intention is good, but this will bring only harm to others. But there are many other examples.
How could it possibly be well-intentioned to stop people from following their natural sexual preferences?
that is an issue: "good" intention.

the principle of intention related to karma is a ver high level thing, but really underestimated and trivialized.
Explain more!
Make personal vows.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun May 24, 2020 5:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:02 am
We keep talking about "good intentions" but we overlook the fact that there are underlying afflictions governing our thinking, the chief of which is ignorance/delusion.

If we are unaware of the dependently arisen/empty nature of reality, then our intentions (and subsequent actions) will almost always be tainted.
i agree.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:09 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:06 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:57 pm
For them it matters, because it will effect their karma vipaka.
How could it possibly be well-intentioned to stop people from following their natural sexual preferences?
that is an issue: "good" intention.

the principle of intention related to karma is a ver high level thing, but really underestimated and trivialized.
Explain more!
for applying karmic action one must have perfect wisdom and clairvoyance.

if one wants to play in the sandbox of intention-only, then it is of the most egoistic attitude.

what should do the boddhisattva then? first cultivate wisdom -of underlying reality- , and from wisdom then drive himself and enter into action. Not from deluded intention, not because emotional agitation, not because of a self-grasping merit accumulation attitude.

without wisdom, good intentioned action produces merely more comfortable samsara and sort of deva-alike satisfaction.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 24, 2020 6:15 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am


for applying karmic action one must have perfect wisdom and clairvoyance.

if one wants to play in the sandbox of intention-only, then it is of the most egoistic attitude.

what should do the boddhisattva then? first cultivate wisdom -of underlying reality- , and from wisdom then drive himself and enter into action. Not from deluded intention, not because emotional agitation, not because of a self-grasping merit accumulation attitude.

without wisdom, good intentioned action produces merely more comfortable samsara and sort of deva-alike satisfaction.
Avalokitesvara responds to immediate danger to those who call his/her name. Those who experienced this should know. Avalokitesvara has become a Buddha eons ago.

Merit is the place of liberation in every thought we should turn it into merit. Thought that’s free of self/personal desire in that Nature and only enlightened ones can do this perfectly because they transcended self and Dharma which is fully awakened to that Nature, so every thought they have is operated by that Nature instead of the narrow skandhas. Of course that’s difficult it’s already difficult interacting on this forum with good thoughts all the time.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 24, 2020 6:40 am

It’s also unclear because of interaction self cherish arises. We know that’s karma but it’s unclear whose it is. Could be mine or yours or simply karma. It depends on how you see it. Don’t think that enlightened beings don’t cause us to arise unwholesome thoughts not imply that I am. To see that effect, simply sincerely make a vow to arise unwholesome thoughts in sentient beings you interact with, and you will see. But why do they do that? Because without arising unwholesome thoughts, how can any Dharma arise?
Make personal vows.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun May 24, 2020 2:42 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:15 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am


for applying karmic action one must have perfect wisdom and clairvoyance.

if one wants to play in the sandbox of intention-only, then it is of the most egoistic attitude.

what should do the boddhisattva then? first cultivate wisdom -of underlying reality- , and from wisdom then drive himself and enter into action. Not from deluded intention, not because emotional agitation, not because of a self-grasping merit accumulation attitude.

without wisdom, good intentioned action produces merely more comfortable samsara and sort of deva-alike satisfaction.
Avalokitesvara responds to immediate danger to those who call his/her name. Those who experienced this should know. Avalokitesvara has become a Buddha eons ago.

Merit is the place of liberation in every thought we should turn it into merit. Thought that’s free of self/personal desire in that Nature and only enlightened ones can do this perfectly because they transcended self and Dharma which is fully awakened to that Nature, so every thought they have is operated by that Nature instead of the narrow skandhas. Of course that’s difficult it’s already difficult interacting on this forum with good thoughts all the time.
merits per se aren't conductive to liberation.

without any wisdom one can get as "fat as a pig" -of merits- and can become a deva, intoxicated with one's own self cherish, just by having good intentions, making offerings and/or whatever.

evidently merits aren't the end nor the main point.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 24, 2020 2:53 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:42 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:15 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am


for applying karmic action one must have perfect wisdom and clairvoyance.

if one wants to play in the sandbox of intention-only, then it is of the most egoistic attitude.

what should do the boddhisattva then? first cultivate wisdom -of underlying reality- , and from wisdom then drive himself and enter into action. Not from deluded intention, not because emotional agitation, not because of a self-grasping merit accumulation attitude.

without wisdom, good intentioned action produces merely more comfortable samsara and sort of deva-alike satisfaction.
Avalokitesvara responds to immediate danger to those who call his/her name. Those who experienced this should know. Avalokitesvara has become a Buddha eons ago.

Merit is the place of liberation in every thought we should turn it into merit. Thought that’s free of self/personal desire in that Nature and only enlightened ones can do this perfectly because they transcended self and Dharma which is fully awakened to that Nature, so every thought they have is operated by that Nature instead of the narrow skandhas. Of course that’s difficult it’s already difficult interacting on this forum with good thoughts all the time.
merits per se aren't conductive to liberation.

without any wisdom one can get as "fat as a pig" -of merits- and can become a deva, intoxicated with one's own self cherish, just by having good intentions, making offerings and/or whatever.

evidently merits aren't the end nor the main point.
Merit is divided into categories: worldly merits, the other is wisdom itself this merit needs to be developed in working to benefit sentients after enlightenment.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun May 24, 2020 3:17 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:53 pm

Merit is divided into categories: worldly merits, the other is wisdom itself this merit needs to be developed in working to benefit sentients after enlightenment.
merit isn't a kind of understanding, so it canno't be wisdom.

even if holding wisdom generates an unimaginable expanse of merits.

there is no fundamental difference between a boddhisattva that developed wisdom and the thataghata himself, and there is clear fundamental difference between a boddhisattva that didn't developed wisdom and the thataghata himself. and both boddhisattvas might have the same inmense merit!

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 24, 2020 3:41 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:17 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:53 pm

Merit is divided into categories: worldly merits, the other is wisdom itself this merit needs to be developed in working to benefit sentients after enlightenment.
merit isn't a kind of understanding, so it canno't be wisdom.

even if holding wisdom generates an unimaginable expanse of merits.

there is no fundamental difference between a boddhisattva that developed wisdom and the thataghata himself, and there is clear fundamental difference between a boddhisattva that didn't developed wisdom and the thataghata himself. and both boddhisattvas might have the same inmense merit!
If merit is understood as a Buddhist currency something to have, that’s worldly cause and effect. The question is how does a current action for us to turn into merit that is not perishable, it must come from Nature (the place that’s free of self and Dharma). What isn’t perishable can only be wisdom. The cause being the action (coming from basic alertness itself free of self) the effect being wisdom. But if you want start with wisdom (Nature itself) to generate merit, the effect is wisdom (knowing more things than now beyond the limited knowledge of skandhas). Nature itself is the complete place for everything to happen because Nature is Unborn Wisdom.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by confusedlayman » Tue May 26, 2020 11:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:51 am
Mirror wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 pm
Hello, I'm wondering, how can one avoid commiting bad deeds, when one's intention is good? It has happend many times, that people were commiting negative deeds, but their intention was good, for example: Hitler, christian inquisition, wars...
You have an extraordinarily warped idea of what "good intentions" means.

The other mistake you are making is to assume that the stated intentions are the actual intentions.
its all based on wrong views and action undertaken by wrong views leads to bad result. hitler idea lead to bad result, christians invasion lead to more death in history of planet and more wars, etc...

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by confusedlayman » Tue May 26, 2020 11:31 am

SteRo wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:38 am
How can there be good intentions based on wrong views? But of course ignorance may experience "good intention".
true.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by Mirror » Thu May 28, 2020 10:50 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:42 pm
merits per se aren't conductive to liberation.

without any wisdom one can get as "fat as a pig" -of merits- and can become a deva, intoxicated with one's own self cherish, just by having good intentions, making offerings and/or whatever.

evidently merits aren't the end nor the main point.
If the intention is based on self-cherishing, then it isn't the good intention.

Withou merit you can't be reborn as a human and can't get into a contact with dharma. So merit is very important.

Can one create a negative karma if one's bodhicitta is perfect and pure?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu May 28, 2020 11:45 pm

Mirror wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:50 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:42 pm
merits per se aren't conductive to liberation.

without any wisdom one can get as "fat as a pig" -of merits- and can become a deva, intoxicated with one's own self cherish, just by having good intentions, making offerings and/or whatever.

evidently merits aren't the end nor the main point.
If the intention is based on self-cherishing, then it isn't the good intention.

Withou merit you can't be reborn as a human and can't get into a contact with dharma. So merit is very important.

Can one create a negative karma if one's bodhicitta is perfect and pure?
as far as i can see, receiving dharma doesn't have much to do with the merit you have as with your very basic understanding of reality. it doesn't matter if you receive dharma from a human or not, and wisdom is not a particular mark of humans (not at all i would say). there are masters in the various realms... but if you want to receive and practice a renounciation dharma, human realm seems more suitable by far.

most people say "pure" pointing to a "holy" pretension, but, as i see dharma, pure means "original" and original means non-fabricated.. so results of pure intention depends on wisdom, wisdom mean that you know by means of uninterrupted and vivid experience that there is actually no one concrete performing a good -or bad- action towars no one concrete either in this case. so yes, one can create bad karma by having a good-ignorant intention.

i disagree with some cannonical things as you can see.

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Re: Bad deeds with good intention

Post by Mirror » Sat May 30, 2020 11:00 am

Wisdom without love and compassion leads to nihilism.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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