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Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:03 pm
by ram peswani
[*]
Rakshasa wrote:It is common for Buddhists to often talk about Arhats in a disparaging tone while comparing them with the Bodhisattvas, almost like the Arhats are not only lower compared to the Bodhisattvas, they are in fact lower to average Buddhist lay disciples (humans) also. This is not a good thinking in all schools of Buddhism.

Arhats are superior to all the Devas, including the Brahmas, so they do deserve their own respect and veneration. In comparison to Bodhisattvas, Arhats are superior to even Bodhisattvas of the 8th Bhumi (will need to confirm this though).

In the end, Arhats attain Nirvana.

From Guatam Buddha's mouth in lotus sutra......
Arhats who do not accept bhoddisattva path are REJECTIONS. He expressed disappointment with those Arhats.
Guatam Buddha tried to teach laymen for 40 years to reach the fruitation of Arhantship, so that they become capable of becoming bhoddisattvas. Only 1200 from 5000 arhats accepted Bhoddisatva path.

He clearly said that an Arhat is a very important stage and extremely necessary for further path of Bhoddisattva.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:24 pm
by Namgyal
What was the old Indian saying 'externally Hinayana, internally Mahayana, secretly Vajrayana'? So how do you know whether or not a Theravada monk is practising the bodhisattvayana? The core teachings are in all forms of Buddhism because Buddha did not teach an inferior vehicle, only one vehicle (Ekayana). So who can say which is superior over another?; they are just different titles of reverence, for unimaginably advanced beings.
:namaste: R.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:37 pm
by Red Faced Buddha
Raksha wrote:What was the old Indian saying 'externally Hinayana, internally Mahayana, secretly Vajrayana'? So how do you know whether or not a Theravada monk is practising the bodhisattvayana? The core teachings are in all forms of Buddhism because Buddha did not teach an inferior vehicle, only one vehicle (Ekayana). So who can say which is superior over another?; they are just different titles of reverence, for unimaginably advanced beings.
:namaste: R.
This is probably the best answer I got out of this.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:05 pm
by Rakz
deepbluehum wrote:
Yes, almost. 16th Bhumi is also non-abiding.
How can it be both abiding and non abiding? :rolleye:

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:53 am
by well wisher
What do you call an Arhat who strives to cooperate and serve the same Bodhisattavs' goals to help liberate all sentient beings to achieve buddhahood and full release from sufferings, but in his/her own ways? Who you call that Arhat as an beginner Bodhisattav too?
Then again, maybe I just do not have full proper understanding of the difference between Arhat vs Bodhisattav models.

I just do not believe grading one model over the other as superior or inferior as bemeficial or benevolent, it seems like unnecesary internal debacale and internal warfare;
my father's tradition is akin to that of Mahayanist supremists, who hates the Arhat model goal as being too selfish.

But I disagree, I say Arhat is a very fine model to strive for. I believe the Arhats are fully enlightened ( or close to it) such that they would have all the proper defences and knowledge to ward angainst all types of samsara and worldy sufferings, via the development or proper and righteous livelihood (like the Buddha), adherence to the precepts, the eightfold noble path.

In fact, I would think maybe a more proper path is that one should stive to be an Arhat first, before embarking on the Bodhisattav path. That way you would know the best and fastest and proper ways to devlier sentitent beings away from sufferings, without causing more suffering to any sentient beings.
And I would end up pitying the Bodhisattav-aspirants who delve into samsara worlds and suffer through samsara suffering traps without the proper defences.

I say both models can serve one very well towards the path towards buddhahood in this human world.
Do I have the wrong view? Feel free to comment on my statements above.
Thank you all,

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:45 pm
by kadagyurme
Different strokes for different folks.

:namaste:

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:24 pm
by well wisher
Yup, i agree that the different models might be more fitting for different people and different personalities.

I believe both role models (Arhats & Bodhisattvas) are superior role models than common layfolks like me.
It is just that I feel very hard to define exactly what these role models entail.
My understanding based my buddhist traditions and on the various articles I read are:
Arhat=fully enlightened sentient beings who knows the ultimate truth, and
Bodhisattvas = sentients beings who have various degrees of enlightenment but strives to save fellow sentient beings away from suffering.

But I see them as almost equivalent, and both role models needs to support each other.
I believe Arhats who refuse to try to save fellow sentient beings in suffering are ones who have not fully achieve full proper enlightenment yet - as they lack compassion or have various degrees of fear still.
And bodhisattvas who does not pay proper respects to Arhats are just ignorant, maybe just too busy drowning in their own current state of suffering or ignorance.
The historical Gautama Buddha fits both role models, right? Fully enlightened, and tries to save sentient beings with his teachings.
Just maybe - one who fully masters both role model paths is a Buddha!!

My current thought is maybe it is more useful to pursue something more measurable and definable without conflicts, like the "reduction then cessation" of negative / poisonous emotions and attributes (like hatred, jealousy, greed, ignorance, fear .... etc. ), via the 4 four noble truths and 5 precepts and 8-fold noble path to the appropriate degree, and scale upwards in difficulty and goals when the time and circumstances are right.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:31 am
by Bristollad
well wisher wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:24 pm My understanding based my buddhist traditions and on the various articles I read are:
Arhat=fully enlightened sentient beings who knows the ultimate truth, and
Bodhisattvas = sentients beings who have various degrees of enlightenment but strives to save fellow sentient beings away from suffering.
According to Tibetan teachings I’ve received, there are two types of obscurations or afflictions: those that prevent you from being free from suffering; and those that prevent you from having complete knowledge. To achieve freedom from suffering, you need to attain release from the first only. To achieve full enlightenment, the goal of the bodhisattva, you have to attain both. Why? Because the goal of the bodhisattva is to enable everyone to achieve liberation from suffering, and to do that they need complete knowledge of all paths that they can apply for each individual.
well wisher wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:24 pm My current thought is maybe it is more useful to pursue something more measurable and definable without conflicts, like the "reduction then cessation" of negative / poisonous emotions and attributes (like hatred, jealousy, greed, ignorance, fear .... etc. ), via the 4 four noble truths and 5 precepts and 8-fold noble path to the appropriate degree, and scale upwards in difficulty and goals when the time and circumstances are right.
Bodhisattvas will also do these practices because they need to build the two accumulations, of merit and wisdom. The difference isn’t that a bodhisattva doesn’t practise to reduce unproductive states, the difference lies in the motivation to practise. This path is laid out in the lamrim teachings which can be traced back to the Indian teacher, Atisha.

We start where we are, becoming habituated to positive states and learning to reduce negative states, meanwhile we aspire to develop the uncontrived wish for everyone to be free of suffering and its causes and develop the understanding that its our personal responsibility to make that happen, and the only effective way to do that is to be fully enlightened. Why is it for us to do? Because we recognise that we owe a deep debt of gratitude to our parents, to our mother, not just the mother of this life but of all our lives, to all sentient beings. Only when we have this uncontrived attitude and motivation do we become bodhisattvas. That is the start of three countless eons of practice as laid out in the Mahayana sutras (unless we take up the powerful practices of tantra).

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:33 pm
by well wisher
Thank you for the aditional insight on the Bodhisattav path Bristollad, it makes me feel much more comfortable about it.I see now the truly generous and kind Bodhicitta paths would truly embrace and include the Arhat paths as well, and not exclude or admonish it. Truly all-encompassing and extremely benevolent, well worthy of admirations!

I still feel an "Mayhanists supremists" attitudes which berate and belittes Arhats just feels wrong; feels like too much ego/jealousy/fear and clinging.
Also, it is very ironic that many East-asian Mahayinsts Bodhisattav tradiation originated from several Arhat themselves, like the great Bodhidharma himself and his merry fellow Arhats.

Maybe sometimes it is better to be humble & open-minded so you can try to understand other's prespeictives and gain wisdom from it.
For example: despite me growing up well connected with East-asian Mayhanists Bodhisattav Pureland teaching background, I still truly admire the profund freedom and straight-forward yet flexible insights which an an Thervadin Arhat path might offer, as I had personally experienced after a Thervadin Vipasanna meditation course.
Thus so many other buddhists schools can offer useful knowledge and insights for a Mahaynist buddhist too.
But maybe one just be careful and be selctive to keep only the parts that might be useful to them for the time being, otherwise one might fall into the trap of "too many contradictory concepts and lessons" like I have mentally experienced recently.

I still believe the Arhat path is more suited for personailities who prefer more isolation or self-practice first (like myself), while maybe the Bhodisattav path is more suited for the more socially-inclined and social butterflies.
I still believe both models can reach buddahood eventually. But of course, people can learn one-another!

My guesses on possible motts for each role models:
My inner Arhat says: "help yourself to full enlightment and full release away from suffering first before helping others, don't be a busybody and make situations worser for others, especially if you do not know others comepletely".
Then my inner Boddhisattav responded: "helping others willl allow you to help yourself as well, learn from yourself as well as others actions, and do not be afraid of failures or making sins, they are only illusionary concepts. There are always hope and mutplie solutions available to every single problem in life. Be in awe of the power of scientific "trial and errors" concept applied to sociology!"
Then my inner Arhat responded "your going razy, what happend to your focus and discipline?"
I must be going crazy? hahaha :rolling:
Best wishes to all,

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:26 pm
by Bristollad
The Tibetans have a saying, “Dig the well dig before you dispense water to your neighbours otherwise the water will be full of dirt or dry up quickly!”

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:06 pm
by Bristollad
Bristollad wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:26 pm The Tibetans have a saying, “Dig the well deep before you dispense water to your neighbours otherwise the water will be full of dirt or dry up quickly!”
Corrected to make sense :rolling:

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:25 am
by Lucas Oliveira
Astus wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:30 pm First of all, there is a variety of interpretations about how arhats differ from bodhisattvas. Generally we can say that arhats are permanently free from samsara, while bodhisattvas have chosen to remain within samsara in order to help beings and accumulate merit to become buddhas. Because bodhisattvas eventually can become buddhas, it is said that because of their wish to become buddhas, they are superior to arhats in the sense that they have greater aspiration based on greater compassion, and that compassion and aspiration is what bodhicitta is.
:anjali:
kadagyurme wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:45 pm Different strokes for different folks.

:namaste:
:anjali:

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:45 pm
by ThreeVows
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:36 am
In Theravada, an arahant and a Buddha are only different in that the Buddha attained nibbana first.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wouldn't agree, as seen here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ttvas.html

Excerpts from section 4:

"...it would hardly be correct to say that temporal priority is the only thing that distinguishes the Buddha from the arahants."

"Other arahants can certainly teach, and many do teach groups of disciples. Nevertheless, as teachers they do not compare with the Buddha...The Buddha can function so effectively as a teacher because his attainment of enlightenment — the knowledge of the four noble truths, which brings the destruction of the defilements — brings along the acquisition of several other types of knowledge that are considered special assets of a Buddha. Chief among these, according to the oldest sources, are the ten Tathāgata powers (see MN I 70-71), which include the knowledge of the diverse inclinations of beings (sattānaṃ nānādhimuttikataṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇaṃ) and the knowledge of the degree of maturity of the faculties of other beings (parasattānaṃ parapuggalānaṃ indriyaparopariyattaṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇaṃ). Such types of knowledge enable the Buddha to understand the mental proclivities and capacities of any person who comes to him for guidance, and to teach that person in the particular way that will prove most beneficial, taking full account of his or her character and personal circumstances. He is thus "the unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed." Whereas arahant disciples are limited in their communicative skills, the Buddha can communicate effectively with beings in many other realms of existence, as well as with people from many different walks of life. This skill singles him out as "the teacher of devas and humans.""

"...we also see how the Buddha is distinguished from his disciples, namely: (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide. He also has a physical body endowed with thirty-two excellent characteristics and with other marks of physical beauty. These inspire confidence in those who rely on beauty of form."

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:46 pm
by ThreeVows
Astus wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:40 am Just to add to this plethora of interpretations and ideas, in East Asian Buddhism - based primarily on the Lotus Sutra - arhats attain only a seeming nirvana and once they're awaken from it by the buddhas they continue their path to liberation as high level (8th bhumi) bodhisattvas. So, according to this view, there is only one kind of nirvana, that of the buddha.
Magical Net of Manjushri:

"Attaining disillusionment through the three vehicles,
One abides in the result through the single vehicle."

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:31 am
by well wisher
Great, its reassuring to see that Arahant and Bodhisattva paths actually do coincide, the 8th Bhumi level is truly very high level accomplishment. I now believe that the duality of "Arahant versus Boddhisattav fights" are illusions that should be dispelled and seen through. Oh, the dangers of illusionary dualities!
-----
Seeker12 wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:46 pm Magical Net of Manjushri:
"Attaining disillusionment through the three vehicles,
One abides in the result through the single vehicle."
This reminds me of the lotus Sutra!
source: https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/O/28
single vehicle, Buddha vehicle ....
The Lotus Sutra teaches that these three vehicles are not ends in themselves but means to lead people to the one vehicle, which unifies and refines the three vehicle teachings.
----
Also I find the below internet article to be very insightful and entertaining ;)
Source:https://www.amaravati.org/the-view-from-the-centre/
"A Dhamma article by Ajahn Amaro – The View From the Centre"
the stereotyping of the opposing group became a fixed view: anyone who aspired to arahantship must be a selfish nihilist, while all those who took the bodhisattva vows were obviously heretical eternalists.
:rolling:

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:36 am
by stevie
ram peswani wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:03 pm He clearly said that an Arhat is a very important stage and extremely necessary for further path of Bhoddisattva.
From the perspective of Mahayana that is completely wrong. The intention to attain the state of an Arhat is incompatible with Bodhicitta.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:36 am
by SunWuKong
A bodhisattva is the one who returns to the battlefield to rescue the injured

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:23 pm
by well wisher
I think so too, Bodhisattvas are truly extremely noble saviors in the return like so.
I only hope that these Bodhisattvas carry enough tools & skills & powers & wisdom with them while being reborned in the realm of desire, to be able to properly guide and help us sentient beings save ourselves, and not get stuck in the same sufferings traps (Samsara) themselves!

If I were a Bodhisattva being reborned as a human, then I would INSIST on having AT LEAST having these powers right at the start of birth, and keeping them beyond life & death: 1) remembering all my own past lives, and 2) reading other people's minds.
I believe Bodhisattavs should have powers beyond life & death, beyond any sufferings.
Since I do not have these powers clearly, thus I have logically deduced that I was NOT a Boddhisattav in my recent past-lives, so I got lots of work to do still in the noble Buddah path!

See also Amitabha Buddha's noble 48 vows, it includes such powers that I considered as essential!
Source: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Amitabha ... eight_vows
Vow 5
Provided I become a Buddha, if in that Buddha-country of mine the beings who are born there should not be possessed of the supernormal knowledge of recollecting the previous lives of themselves (Purvanivasana i.e. knowledge of all reincarnations), and knowing the events of evolution of hundred thousand nayuta years of kalpas, then may I not attain the enlightenment.
Vow 8
Provided I become a Buddha, if the beings of that country of mine should not all possessed the Intuitive-mind (Paratchittadjna) knowing the thoughts of all beings of a hundred thousand kotis of nayuta of Buddha-countries, then may I not attain the enlightenment.
So its better to start small, before tackling the bigger harder tasks, right?
In that case, I believe the Arahants' paths and methods are very powerful ways to cultivate those essential tools and skills.
And I think the Arahant-inspiration path is actually IDENTICAL to "king-like bodhicitta" model, because they inspire to obtain full enlightenment first like the Buddha. Let me know the reasons if you disagree?
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva
A bodhisattva might be motivated in one of three ways. They are:
King-like bodhicitta - To aspire to become a Buddha first in order to then help sentient beings.
Boatman-like bodhicitta - To aspire to become a Buddha at the same time as other sentient beings.
Shepherd-like bodhicitta - To aspire to become a Buddha only after all other sentient beings have done so.
Wishing all of us sentient beings to be saved from Samsara & sufferings sooner rather than later,
well wisher

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:54 pm
by stevie
well wisher wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:23 pm So its better to start small, before tackling the bigger harder tasks, right?
In that case, I believe the Arahants' paths and methods are very powerful ways to cultivate those essential tools and skills.
If you believe so then either you've not been introduced to the Mahayana or you've been introduced to it but are not the appropriate candidate for Mahayana.
well wisher wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:23 pm
And I think the Arahant-inspiration path is actually IDENTICAL to "king-like bodhicitta" model, because they inspire to obtain full enlightenment first like the Buddha. Let me know the reasons if you disagree?
From the perspective of the Mahayana that's wrong. Either there is the resolve to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of primarily others and secondarily oneself or there is the resolve to attain the state of an Arhat and that necessarily is for the benefit of onself only. If one follows the path of an Arhat it is impossible not to fall to an extreme of peace for oneself. The path and its practices are different.

Re: What is the difference between an Arhat and Bodhisattva?

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:10 pm
by well wisher
stevie wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:54 pm From the perspective of the Mahayana that's wrong. Either there is the resolve to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of primarily others and secondarily oneself or there is the resolve to attain the state of an Arhat and that necessarily is for the benefit of onself only. If one follows the path of an Arhat it is impossible not to fall to an extreme of peace for oneself. The path and its practices are different.
Thanks for the response stevie. I would imagine that Arahants would become BORED of that extreme peace after many eons, in whatever state they are after death (eg. formeless heaven or Buddha puelands, ... etc.).
So I would imagine those Arahants could be easily convinced by Buddhas/Bodhisattavs to help benefit other sentient beings too to become like Buddhas too, thus embarking on Buddhahood path again.
So in the end, I would imagine the end results would be all the same: all Buddhas.

But my logical model might be wrong, or may not be the only model out there.
For now I guess I should just focus on my Buddhist practices then, and stop thinking about the competing models too much.
Thanks again