ahimsa and pest control

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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ahimsa and pest control

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:15 am

I live semi-rurally, was wondering how others handle things like wasps nests and mouse infestations. So far i've been lucky and been able to let the wasps nests just stay as they were far from the door, and from my kids.
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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:20 am

There was a topic not too long ago about this.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by lowlydog » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:29 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I live semi-rurally, was wondering how others handle things like wasps nests and mouse infestations. So far i've been lucky and been able to let the wasps nests just stay as they were far from the door, and from my kids.
I am a firm believer in letting nature "just be" and trying to coexist peacefully. We have mice in our house, you can try to seal up their entrance, but they are sneaky little buggers and this will most likely be unsuccesful. I found that by being really diligent with cleaning up food their numbers have almost completley diminished, we have a dog (a really big mouse) and they go after his food at night, so its very difficult to completley remove their food source. Compared to the mess the dog and the kids make the mice are perfect guests. :smile:

As for the wasps, they could hurt small children so they must relocate, ask them nicely to move ,if they don't, let them know that you will have to spray them if they don't. Tell them that this is not what you want to do but they are leaving you no other choice. Give them a few days to decide and then carry out your business of removing them, but do it in a peaceful frame of mind, with the hope that most will get the message and move on unharmed.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Adamantine » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:07 pm

lowlydog wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I live semi-rurally, was wondering how others handle things like wasps nests and mouse infestations. So far i've been lucky and been able to let the wasps nests just stay as they were far from the door, and from my kids.
I am a firm believer in letting nature "just be" and trying to coexist peacefully. We have mice in our house, you can try to seal up their entrance, but they are sneaky little buggers and this will most likely be unsuccesful. I found that by being really diligent with cleaning up food their numbers have almost completley diminished, we have a dog (a really big mouse) and they go after his food at night, so its very difficult to completley remove their food source. Compared to the mess the dog and the kids make the mice are perfect guests. :smile:

As for the wasps, they could hurt small children so they must relocate, ask them nicely to move ,if they don't, let them know that you will have to spray them if they don't. Tell them that this is not what you want to do but they are leaving you no other choice. Give them a few days to decide and then carry out your business of removing them, but do it in a peaceful frame of mind, with the hope that most will get the message and move on unharmed.
Actually I know a fearless dharma friend who just grabs wasp nests with his gloved hand to move them. I would not recommend this. But if you got the proper beekeeper gear you could do it risk free. To avoid the terrible karma of intentional killing, i'd say it'd be worth the expense. . .
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by stifin43 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:49 am

Hello,

I live semi-rurally, was wondering how others handle things like wasps nests and mouse infestations.
Is this ahimsa and pest control become heipful for me.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm

Sincere observation: we live off others' corpses. There are some exceptions but generally:
* we feed off living things which we kill to eat
* to live is ro kill (weeding garden, walk down street/path and step on all kinds of insects)
* boil water, you kill all kinds of water born organisms
* get a fever and you are killing living sentient beings in you body

...and if you feel like a devil human, s)all living beings do the same. And if you think plants are peaceful, wrong again, look closely at your lawn, its a true war out there, one trying to steel from the next: sun, water, earth, space.

It is good to get sick of this life. And its good to see just how bad it is to be in Samsara. Then as for trying to follow ethics (first four of six perfections), go for it. It will improve your happiness and the happiness of those around you. But in terms pf discernment, isnt it impractical to try to never wipe out a family of insects or plants?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:10 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm
Sincere observation: we live off others' corpses. There are some exceptions but generally:
* we feed off living things which we kill to eat
* to live is ro kill (weeding garden, walk down street/path and step on all kinds of insects)
* boil water, you kill all kinds of water born organisms
* get a fever and you are killing living sentient beings in you body

...and if you feel like a devil human, s)all living beings do the same. And if you think plants are peaceful, wrong again, look closely at your lawn, its a true war out there, one trying to steel from the next: sun, water, earth, space.

It is good to get sick of this life. And its good to see just how bad it is to be in Samsara. Then as for trying to follow ethics (first four of six perfections), go for it. It will improve your happiness and the happiness of those around you. But in terms pf discernment, isnt it impractical to try to never wipe out a family of insects or plants?
Killing deliberately is very different from killing without intention. Also, it is the motivation that matters.

When you kill insects in the house you kill them with intention, and out of attachment and aversion. You also rejoice in what you have done, even if you tell yourself you do not like it, you still think it is better that they are removed. As a result, the complete karma of killing accumulated.

Also, it is impossible to purify these deeds as the resolve never to do it again is missing, unless you decide you never want to do it again of course.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:47 pm

Understood. But what do you think about the emptiness aspect of what you are talking about? In other words, emptiness, or the realization of dependant origination is seen as the basis of liberation from samsara. How do yiu reconcile the emptiness realization of killing insects deliberately at home, with the bad karma of it? Does one override the other? Or how are they in keeping with each other?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:08 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:47 pm
Understood. But what do you think about the emptiness aspect of what you are talking about? In other words, emptiness, or the realization of dependant origination is seen as the basis of liberation from samsara. How do yiu reconcile the emptiness realization of killing insects deliberately at home, with the bad karma of it? Does one override the other? Or how are they in keeping with each other?
The operation of karma does not change. This is often brought up here, as it is a mistake to think that karma does not apply just because of some insight into emptiness. If you have perfect realization then you are not influenced by negative emotions, so it is not possible to kill insects motivated by negative emotions anyway.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:37 pm

I really dont like using chemical sprays that kill plants or animals. I want bugs kept to a minimum inside the house

Get several citronella plants for your yard

Tale the citronella leaves and utterly crush them between your hands making a paste. rub the paste into your hands, then rub down exposed skin with your hands, it transfers the oil to your skin

Make sure theres no open standing water in your yard for mosquito larva

cut your grass short to discourage mosquito infestation

prune trees and shrubs to allow more sunlight

Keep your kitchen and eating areas spotlessly clean

store in airtight jars or containers

sacks of rice or flour, store up high

clean out spiders webs and cobwebs periodically, discouraging nest building

seal base boards with caulk or mortar

seal and screen off all places where small things can enter the exterior of your home
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:53 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:08 pm
tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:47 pm
Understood. But what do you think about the emptiness aspect of what you are talking about? In other words, emptiness, or the realization of dependant origination is seen as the basis of liberation from samsara. How do yiu reconcile the emptiness realization of killing insects deliberately at home, with the bad karma of it? Does one override the other? Or how are they in keeping with each other?
The operation of karma does not change. This is often brought up here, as it is a mistake to think that karma does not apply just because of some insight into emptiness. If you have perfect realization then you are not influenced by negative emotions, so it is not possible to kill insects motivated by negative emotions anyway.
Right understood... let me suggest that it all goes much deeper than something (e.g. karma) "applying" or not "applying". Karma is simply a contrived human understandimg (e.g. a word) used to refer to the logical implication (s) of dependant origination. Lets remember, consciousness is one of the 12 links of dependant origination. So if you are still dealing in consciousness, you are still in Samsara (have been/are being reborn). What we are talking about with karma is the simple interlocking that is the reality of emptiness, there is no conciousness involved in the thing itself. It is quantum mechanics/entanglement. There is actually no way out of interdependence, collaboration, dependence, interconnection, etc...

So my point, while i fully agree our happiness depends on the happiness of those we interact with, the suffering of others and us taking that on, whether we caused it or not, is in the cards, its not a question if you like it or not so much as if you choose to run from it (maintain illusion of self) or not (accept interdependence).

So then hit a mosquito or not, bad motivation or not, i get that, we are talking about the ethics practice of buddhism. But first off, noble truth #1, we are all going to die and suffer a great deal of sickness which is resl hell, no mater what. So within the reality of the three types of suffering, appreciating the right of all sentient beings to happiness can be a pathway to liberation, no question. But its always helpful to keep a handle on the dark side of reality.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:37 pm
I really dont like using chemical sprays that kill plants or animals. I want bugs kept to a minimum inside the house

Get several citronella plants for your yard

Tale the citronella leaves and utterly crush them between your hands making a paste. rub the paste into your hands, then rub down exposed skin with your hands, it transfers the oil to your skin

Make sure theres no open standing water in your yard for mosquito larva

cut your grass short to discourage mosquito infestation

prune trees and shrubs to allow more sunlight

Keep your kitchen and eating areas spotlessly clean

store in airtight jars or containers

sacks of rice or flour, store up high

clean out spiders webs and cobwebs periodically, discouraging nest building

seal base boards with caulk or mortar

seal and screen off all places where small things can enter the exterior of your home
One for the outside in Arizona 1/2 gallon vinegar pored down a large fire ant
mound in the yard.Gone the next day.I didn't do it but i saw the result.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:47 am

tomschwarz wrote:
But first off, noble truth #1, we are all going to die and suffer a great deal of sickness which is resl hell, no mater what. So within the reality of the three types of suffering, appreciating the right of all sentient beings to happiness can be a pathway to liberation, no question. But its always helpful to keep a handle on the dark side of reality.
What do you mean by the dark side of reality?

Suffering can be overcome as is shown by the other noble truths after he first one.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by smcj » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:49 pm

The operation of karma does not change. This is often brought up here, as it is a mistake to think that karma does not apply just because of some insight into emptiness.
:good:

However there are karmic cycles where you are basically forced to commit negative actions in order to survive. If you try to practice ahimsa there you’ll most likely quickly find yourself in the bardo.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:01 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:49 pm
The operation of karma does not change. This is often brought up here, as it is a mistake to think that karma does not apply just because of some insight into emptiness.
:good:

However there are karmic cycles where you are basically forced to commit negative actions in order to survive. If you try to practice ahimsa there you’ll most likely quickly find yourself in the bardo.
All the more reason to take this stuff seriously while we have the freedoms and advantages.
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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:55 pm

A true story.
When CTR was abbot of Samye Ling he inherited a large colony of rats that came with the building.
Most of the time the humans and rats coexisted, although they (the rats) often stole foodstuffs used in pujas.

But around that time it became clear that the local authorities were taking a keen interest in what when on..there were reports of hippy types building fires in the nearby forest etc.
A letter was received saying that a formal inspection of the kitchens was going to take place on a date about six weeks away. They wanted to see if the hygiene was good enough to continue to offer food to paying guests...'The Rats!' was everyone's first thought.
There was a well known Bhutanese Tantric staying at the time. He and CTR went round putting papers inscribed with mantras in the holes asking them politely to leave.
They didnt.
Reluctantly CTR phoned Rentokil.
" The most important thing is that the Wheel of The Dharma is turned here" he said.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:39 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:49 pm
The operation of karma does not change. This is often brought up here, as it is a mistake to think that karma does not apply just because of some insight into emptiness.
:good:

However there are karmic cycles where you are basically forced to commit negative actions in order to survive. If you try to practice ahimsa there you’ll most likely quickly find yourself in the bardo.
Life can give us some dreadful choices, but some may choose death, so not so much 'finding themself' as 'deliberately entering' the path to their next life. Obi Wan Kenobe made it look cool :)

I think that it may also be contradictory. The path of least harm may include murder and warfare if the alternative is worse.
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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:55 pm
A true story.
When CTR was abbot of Samye Ling he inherited a large colony of rats that came with the building.
Most of the time the humans and rats coexisted, although they (the rats) often stole foodstuffs used in pujas.

But around that time it became clear that the local authorities were taking a keen interest in what when on..there were reports of hippy types building fires in the nearby forest etc.
A letter was received saying that a formal inspection of the kitchens was going to take place on a date about six weeks away. They wanted to see if the hygiene was good enough to continue to offer food to paying guests...'The Rats!' was everyone's first thought.
There was a well known Bhutanese Tantric staying at the time. He and CTR went round putting papers inscribed with mantras in the holes asking them politely to leave.
They didnt.
Reluctantly CTR phoned Rentokil.
" The most important thing is that the Wheel of The Dharma is turned here" he said.
There is no such thing as a 'pest', just humans who believe they are so important they can kill other beings just for their own comfort.

There are humane ways to trap, even rats (I've done this in India) and release them elsewhere. There are methods to remove the source of food etc. or provide a habitat the creatures will find more attractive than the one you want to occupy. Giving them paper (mantras) food to eat is simply daft - next thing you'll be telling me they used rice paper or parchment!

Rats will not stay where there is no food - calling Rentokil for rats is at best ignorant and arrogant, at worst totally uncompassionate and deserving of reaping the karma of the act of the killing ordered.
Which is better, Samye Ling with a few rats, or even hundreds like Karni Matha, or 'turning the wheel of Dharma' by killing sentient beings?
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:55 pm
A true story.
When CTR was abbot of Samye Ling he inherited a large colony of rats that came with the building.
Most of the time the humans and rats coexisted, although they (the rats) often stole foodstuffs used in pujas.

But around that time it became clear that the local authorities were taking a keen interest in what when on..there were reports of hippy types building fires in the nearby forest etc.
A letter was received saying that a formal inspection of the kitchens was going to take place on a date about six weeks away. They wanted to see if the hygiene was good enough to continue to offer food to paying guests...'The Rats!' was everyone's first thought.
There was a well known Bhutanese Tantric staying at the time. He and CTR went round putting papers inscribed with mantras in the holes asking them politely to leave.
They didnt.
Reluctantly CTR phoned Rentokil.
" The most important thing is that the Wheel of The Dharma is turned here" he said.
There is no such thing as a 'pest', just humans who believe they are so important they can kill other beings just for their own comfort.

There are humane ways to trap, even rats (I've done this in India) and release them elsewhere. There are methods to remove the source of food etc. or provide a habitat the creatures will find more attractive than the one you want to occupy. Giving them paper (mantras) food to eat is simply daft - next thing you'll be telling me they used rice paper or parchment!

Rats will not stay where there is no food - calling Rentokil for rats is at best ingorant and arrogant, at worst totally uncompassionate and deserving of reaping the karma directly of the act of the killing ordered.
Which is better, Samye Ling with a few rats, or even hundreds like Karni Matha, or 'turning the wheel of Dharma' by killing sentient beings?
It seems it would have been shut down if the inspectors found rats there, so it is a choice between abandoning the monastery and killing the rats.

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Re: ahimsa and pest control

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:33 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:55 pm
A true story.
When CTR was abbot of Samye Ling he inherited a large colony of rats that came with the building.
Most of the time the humans and rats coexisted, although they (the rats) often stole foodstuffs used in pujas.

But around that time it became clear that the local authorities were taking a keen interest in what when on..there were reports of hippy types building fires in the nearby forest etc.
A letter was received saying that a formal inspection of the kitchens was going to take place on a date about six weeks away. They wanted to see if the hygiene was good enough to continue to offer food to paying guests...'The Rats!' was everyone's first thought.
There was a well known Bhutanese Tantric staying at the time. He and CTR went round putting papers inscribed with mantras in the holes asking them politely to leave.
They didnt.
Reluctantly CTR phoned Rentokil.
" The most important thing is that the Wheel of The Dharma is turned here" he said.
There is no such thing as a 'pest', just humans who believe they are so important they can kill other beings just for their own comfort.

There are humane ways to trap, even rats (I've done this in India) and release them elsewhere. There are methods to remove the source of food etc. or provide a habitat the creatures will find more attractive than the one you want to occupy. Giving them paper (mantras) food to eat is simply daft - next thing you'll be telling me they used rice paper or parchment!

Rats will not stay where there is no food - calling Rentokil for rats is at best ingorant and arrogant, at worst totally uncompassionate and deserving of reaping the karma directly of the act of the killing ordered.
Which is better, Samye Ling with a few rats, or even hundreds like Karni Matha, or 'turning the wheel of Dharma' by killing sentient beings?
It seems it would have been shut down if the inspectors found rats there, so it is a choice between abandoning the monastery and killing the rats.
Not really. Health & Safety would issue an immediate imporevement notice and at worst close the kitchens until the kitchens were free of rat presence. The rest of the place could have rats if they wished so no, not a matter of abandoning the monastery, just preventing access to kitchens and removing access to the food.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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