Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:50 pm

Brahman, taught right, is just a metaphor/raft to be left behind at "the other shore." But it's the last, stickiest metaphor to go in Advaita.
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krodha
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by krodha » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:39 pm

Rick wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:50 pm
Brahman, taught right, is just a metaphor/raft to be left behind at "the other shore." But it's the last, stickiest metaphor to go in Advaita.
That is debatable. An Advaita teacher I know said that he’s only encountered a single master of Advaita state that even Brahman or consciousness is not found at the end of the Advaitin path.

According to him this position is incredibly novel and he theorizes that this master must have refined his insight to a degree that others have not.

This statement was also not published publicly, perhaps because of its controversial nature.

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:50 pm

My teacher, who is a traditional Advaita Vedantin, constantly reminds me that NONE of the teachings have any meaning on the ultimate level (paramarthika). Though I will say that when I ask him if Atman is Brahman is One is also ultimately meaningless he tends to fall silent. Which seems appropriate, because I am not a jivanmukta dwelling in moksha, and even if I were, nothing can ultimately be said about atman or brahman or One. (For the record, I am not an Advaitin or a Buddhist, though I am a student of both.)
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:36 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:39 pm
this master must have refined his insight to a degree that others have not.
There no accomplishment that you or any master (even crazy wise ones) will ever attain, that othrs have not. Think of enlightenment as subtraction more than addition (see removing obscuration/buddha nature/etc...). Dont forget, conciousness is one of the twelve links of dependent origination. Dont go there. Then where to go?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

krodha
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by krodha » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:59 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:36 pm
krodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:39 pm
this master must have refined his insight to a degree that others have not.
There no accomplishment that you or any master (even crazy wise ones) will ever attain, that othrs have not. Think of enlightenment as subtraction more than addition (see removing obscuration/buddha nature/etc...). Dont forget, conciousness is one of the twelve links of dependent origination. Dont go there. Then where to go?
Advaita Vedanta, the system they are referring to, is a different path... and this suggestion that they refined their insight more so than other Advaitains, who seem to get caught up with a certain degree of insight, is not something I made up.

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:03 pm

Yes. Advaita Vedanta is such a reasoned and complete system that it's tempting to think that mastering the teachings, views, Sanskrit terms is the ultimate goal. But it isn't! It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate goal: realization of nonduality, moksha, end of karma/suffering/rebirth.

That said, Advaita honors/celebrates the mastering of every step along the path. Neo-Advaita not so much ... most neo teachers are laser-focused on the end goal of realizing nonduality and reject the steps leading to it, reject the entire notion of a path to realization.
Last edited by Rick on Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Simon E.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:06 pm

There is nothing to suggest that Moksha leads to the end of suffering from a Buddhist perspective.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:13 pm

If true, then that's a nontrivial disconnect between Advaita and Buddhism.

The term nirvana, btw, is rarely (if ever) used in Advaita teachings.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:25 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:06 pm
There is nothing to suggest that Moksha leads to the end of suffering from a Buddhist perspective.
And what is there to suggest that Nirvana leads to the end of suffering from an Advaitan perspective?

Your argument is like: The Bible says that non-Christians will burn in hell forever.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:44 pm

Except it doesn't.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:13 pm
If true, then that's a nontrivial disconnect between Advaita and Buddhism.

The term nirvana, btw, is rarely (if ever) used in Advaita teachings.
Yes it is a non-trivial disconnect.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:16 pm

Unless you consider all apparent disconnects to be ultimately illusory.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:16 pm
Unless you consider all apparent disconnects to be ultimately illusory.
In that case you do not need to study advaita either. You can spend your life drinking and gambling and expect to be liberated.

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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:34 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:13 pm
If true, then that's a nontrivial disconnect between Advaita and Buddhism.

The term nirvana, btw, is rarely (if ever) used in Advaita teachings.
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:37 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm
Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:16 pm
Unless you consider all apparent disconnects to be ultimately illusory.
In that case you do not need to study advaita either. You can spend your life drinking and gambling and expect to be liberated.
I'm in! But could I substitute eating and watching tv?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Aryjna
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:40 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:37 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm
Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:16 pm
Unless you consider all apparent disconnects to be ultimately illusory.
In that case you do not need to study advaita either. You can spend your life drinking and gambling and expect to be liberated.
I'm in! But could I substitute eating and watching tv?
You can substitute it with anything if any difference between anything is meaningless due to it being illusory.

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:34 pm
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.
I don't think that's accurate.

It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.

But, ultimately (paramartha/satya), neither dependent origination, karma, or rebirth are seen as true/real. This is true in Buddhism too, yes? Dependent origination, causality, karma, rebirth ... these are all conventional teachings.
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Malcolm
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:13 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:34 pm
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.
I don't think that's accurate.

It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.

But, ultimately (paramartha/satya), neither dependent origination, karma, or rebirth are seen as true/real. This is true in Buddhism too, yes? Dependent origination, causality, karma, rebirth ... these are all conventional teachings.
No, conventionally it asserts creation of the world by Ishvara.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:13 pm
Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:34 pm
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.
I don't think that's accurate.

It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.

But, ultimately (paramartha/satya), neither dependent origination, karma, or rebirth are seen as true/real. This is true in Buddhism too, yes? Dependent origination, causality, karma, rebirth ... these are all conventional teachings.
No, conventionally it asserts creation of the world by Ishvara.
Further, not all conventions are relative truths, some conventions are simply the mere relative.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Rick » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:13 pm
Rick wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm
It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.
No, conventionally it asserts creation of the world by Ishvara.
Yes, I stand corrected, thanks.

When I mention views that don't jibe with traditional Advaita, my teacher often says: "It's all mithya anyway, so feel free to use whatever helps nudge you to realization." I thought dependent origination was kosher for Advaitins in general, but I guess it's only kosher (as a teaching tool) for certain Advaitins, like my teacher.

Btw I am a huge fan of dependent origination, it's one of the cornerstones of my Gesamtkunstwerkweltanschauung! :thumbsup: Ishvara otoh ... not so much. :anjali:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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