Difference between consciousness and the mind

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Kaccāni
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:35 am

garudha wrote:Personally I took "form" to mean all organic matter, and therefore, that all organic matter is a property of sentience (eg Mind). If, however, form is inherently empty; then how could sentience appropriate form? --that would be a massive contradiction.
As I understood this cannon refers to form as reflection of things as consciousness, where consciousness is aware observation on many levels, where from the observation of form itself a new thing/form-cousciousness can dependently arise. I this case "mind" is treated as sixth sense organ where the latter type of consciousness can enter recursion and thoughts become things (mundane).
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:30 pm

garudha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote: In that case, a single-cell organism would be sufficient for the arising of awareness.
You are saying it's not, because of certain factors that a single cell organism lacks,
and then you say those same factors are not dependent on the very thing a single-cell organism lacks.
The way you (PadmaVonSamba) address intelligent life is that sentience is a property of organic matter. Then, elsewhere, I read that form is inherently empty. Personally I took "form" to mean all organic matter, and therefore, that all organic matter is a property of sentience (eg Mind). If, however, form is inherently empty; then how could sentience appropriate form? --that would be a massive contradiction.
No, I have not said that sentience is a property of organic matter.
In fact, just the opposite, constantly.

What I have said is that organic matter merely provides the conditions by which basic awareness manifests as the subject-object experience ("mind"). What distinguishes a living thing from a non-living thing is exactly this. Hence, a sperm cell, lacking any sensory apparatus whatsoever, no skandhas, no 12-links, is still attracted to progesterone excreted by the egg.
And my point was that, just as a tiny drop of dew can reflect the Sun, even a tiny think such as a sperm cell is sufficient for the reflection of awareness.

And regardless of whether one calls it "awareness" or not, the fact that the sperm does not randomly land on the egg but specifically goes toward it demonstrates a basic level of specific ("intentional") interaction. And I would even go so far as to suggest that this is at the root of our whole subject-object / self-other experience that is the dominating feature of mind.
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Andrew108
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Andrew108 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:49 pm

The cause/effect regression isn't an infinite regression.

Also, I agree with PVS. Important points.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:06 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:Impermanent are all component things,
...
Release from them is bliss supreme.
— Mahaa-Parinibbaana Sutta (DN 16)


"There is, monks, an unborn .... If there were not that unborn ..., there would not be the case that emancipation from the born.... But precisely because there is an unborn ..., emancipation from the born ... is discerned."
— Ud 8.3
This is reconciled by the Mahāyāna doctrine that all conditioned things are in a state of nirvana from the beginning.

M
How do all conditioned things relate to being in a state of nirvana from the beginning? I am not saying that they are not. What I am saying is that the words "release" and "emancipation" means that taking the relative as all there is, can never reconcile the meaning of the two quotations.
Liberation, in Mahāyāna, is merely the realization that "all conditioned things are in a state of nirvana from the beginning".

It means realizing that the nature of the arising, etc., is precisely, non-arising.

As a tantra states:

"Everything arose from non-arising,
even arising never arose."

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:07 pm

Andrew108 wrote:The cause/effect regression isn't an infinite regression.
Of course it is. Why? a first cause would be an unconditioned cause. An unconditioned thing can have no effect on a conditioned thing.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:08 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
garudha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote: In that case, a single-cell organism would be sufficient for the arising of awareness.
You are saying it's not, because of certain factors that a single cell organism lacks,
and then you say those same factors are not dependent on the very thing a single-cell organism lacks.
The way you (PadmaVonSamba) address intelligent life is that sentience is a property of organic matter. Then, elsewhere, I read that form is inherently empty. Personally I took "form" to mean all organic matter, and therefore, that all organic matter is a property of sentience (eg Mind). If, however, form is inherently empty; then how could sentience appropriate form? --that would be a massive contradiction.
No, I have not said that sentience is a property of organic matter.
In fact, just the opposite, constantly.

What I have said is that organic matter merely provides the conditions by which basic awareness manifests as the subject-object experience ("mind"). What distinguishes a living thing from a non-living thing is exactly this. Hence, a sperm cell, lacking any sensory apparatus whatsoever, no skandhas, no 12-links, is still attracted to progesterone excreted by the egg.
And my point was that, just as a tiny drop of dew can reflect the Sun, even a tiny think such as a sperm cell is sufficient for the reflection of awareness.

And regardless of whether one calls it "awareness" or not, the fact that the sperm does not randomly land on the egg but specifically goes toward it demonstrates a basic level of specific ("intentional") interaction. And I would even go so far as to suggest that this is at the root of our whole subject-object / self-other experience that is the dominating feature of mind.
...
Chemical attractions do not indicate the presence of awareness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sherab
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Sherab » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote: This is reconciled by the Mahāyāna doctrine that all conditioned things are in a state of nirvana from the beginning.

M
How do all conditioned things relate to being in a state of nirvana from the beginning? I am not saying that they are not. What I am saying is that the words "release" and "emancipation" means that taking the relative as all there is, can never reconcile the meaning of the two quotations.
Liberation, in Mahāyāna, is merely the realization that "all conditioned things are in a state of nirvana from the beginning".

It means realizing that the nature of the arising, etc., is precisely, non-arising.

As a tantra states:

"Everything arose from non-arising,
even arising never arose."

M
Sure, but only if you don't hold the view that the relative is all there is.

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Malcolm
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:14 pm

Sherab wrote: Sure, but only if you don't hold the view that the relative is all there is.
All there is is the union of the two truths. If there is a basis, that is the basis.

All the path is is the union of the method and compassion. If there is a path, that is the path

All the result is is the union of the two kāyas. If there is a result, that is the result.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
As a tantra states:
"Everything arose from non-arising,
even arising never arose."
Yeah, but never arose by any other name
would never smell as never sweet.
:rolling:
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:The cause/effect regression isn't an infinite regression.
Of course it is. Why? a first cause would be an unconditioned cause. An unconditioned thing can have no effect on a conditioned thing.
So..what's the cause of the whole "cause & effect" thing?

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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:33 pm

@PadmaVonSamba:

A sperm cell isn't aware that it's travelling toward an ovum. Our mind is easily tricked to interpret awareness into our observation of natures complex "proceedings". It appears to be impossible that those complex phenomena "just happen" without some kind of awareness. You could also say that's due to the fact that we don't see the many possibilities that arose in nature and died out because they simply were not stable. Maybe the ones we see are the ones that were left over out of insanely many, no matter how complicated they appear to be. Like they're belonging to the waves that still show up.

Then they work this way, because this way of working remained. All of that does not need awareness, although for us they reflect in it.

When it comes to consciousness: Are you aware that you are aware? Of what else are you aware, and who else is? -- are the questions that I use as guidance.
Last edited by Kaccāni on Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:38 pm

Malcolm wrote: Chemical attractions do not indicate the presence of awareness.
The fact that the sperm does not randomly land on the egg but specifically goes toward it demonstrates something more than random chemical interactions. The fact of specific attraction (as opposed to, say, gravitational pull or magnetism, or some sort of stickiness) may not define "awareness" in your book. Whether it is attraction to chemicals, or heat or light is beside the point I am making, which is that something that is alive (A) responds specifically to stimuli from something else which is alive (B). I think that counts for something.
. . .
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:43 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:A sperm cell isn't aware that it's travelling toward an ovum.
Of course they don't "know" they are attracted, just as my brain doesn't know that it is thinking.
I am talking about something that precedes all of that.
and...
Yes, I am aware that I am aware.
and...
I enjoy your posts a great deal. very intelligent.
. . .
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:54 pm

@Padma:

Hmm. My awareness is drawn into thoughts without even me being aware of it. It just happens. In a much more complex being than a sperm. But I can recognize the state (become aware of it) and let it be.

Sperms arrive at the ovum because so many start to begin with (it doesnt matter that half of them takes the wrong way), because they're built like they're built, and because they're released in the environment they're released in.

I don't quite get what you mean with "preceding" in that particular context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFrVmDgh4v4

And thank you, I like reading you too.

Best wishes
Gwenn
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:59 pm

The ego is lobotomised Mind. Believing itself to exists as a something.

However, Sperm, having no ego naturally seek union with the self and are not hindered by contrived notions of separate identity.

A helpful way to look at it is this: all water is identical & separated drops of water naturally conjoin as one body.

The egg, existing as a radiant focus of Mind, naturally attracts little sperm ( little focuses of Mind) which seek union as one body.

To seek union as one is perfectly natural.

If you see this as I do, then you'll surely not give a hoot about being reborn, as to do so is incredibly egotistical, and you'll also recognise how very rare it is to be born as sentient human.
Gwenn Dana wrote: Hmm. My awareness is drawn into thoughts without even me being aware of it
You are that awareness. You don't own it. You don't have thoughts. You are thoughts.
Last edited by garudha on Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andrew108
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Andrew108 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:The cause/effect regression isn't an infinite regression.
Of course it is. Why? a first cause would be an unconditioned cause. An unconditioned thing can have no effect on a conditioned thing.
Entropy
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Andrew108 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:31 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Chemical attractions do not indicate the presence of awareness.
The fact that the sperm does not randomly land on the egg but specifically goes toward it demonstrates something more than random chemical interactions. The fact of specific attraction (as opposed to, say, gravitational pull or magnetism, or some sort of stickiness) may not define "awareness" in your book. Whether it is attraction to chemicals, or heat or light is beside the point I am making, which is that something that is alive (A) responds specifically to stimuli from something else which is alive (B). I think that counts for something.
. . .
Yes there is awareness in the sense that information about the external environment is being registered and processed internally within the sperm.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Kaccāni
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:34 pm

garudha wrote: You don't have thoughts. You are thoughts.
I am not my thoughts. Thoughts reflect on me as awareness.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:37 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:The cause/effect regression isn't an infinite regression.
Of course it is. Why? a first cause would be an unconditioned cause. An unconditioned thing can have no effect on a conditioned thing.
Entropy
Modern Science can't even work out a possible big bang, without running in to problems, let alone explain it all via a single law of thermodynamics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules%E ... Great_Wall
Gwenn Dana wrote:I am not my thoughts. Thoughts reflect on me as awareness.
So you are a mirror ?

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Kaccāni
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:42 pm

garudha wrote:So you are a mirror ?
I am a mirror, am not a mirror, am a mirror and am not a mirror at the same time, and am neither.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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