why is Vajrayana considered the fastest way to buddhahood?

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Admin_PC » Fri May 23, 2014 6:09 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Yes I clearly have to learn more about the PL traditions. I have read some of Shinran's writings and do not find them very attractive, where as what I have read of (the limited amount available in English) on Chinese Pure Land seems to have a lot more in common with what I have learnt in the classical Mahayana presentation of the Gelug and Kagyu schools. Of course, I don't know my Honen from my Shinran and so am definitely lacking in an understanding of the variety within Japanese PL.
Link I posted was a Chinese school following in the traditions of Tan Luan, Tao Cho, and Shan Tao; not in the tradition of the syncretic mix of T'ianT'ai & Ch'an that came to characterize Chinese Pure Land of the Song dynasty and later (a shift that occurred due to the persecution of the late T'ang dynasty). Thus it's more in line with Honen; whose school of Pure Land (incidentally) still has its clergy take Bodhisattva Vows & recites the 4 main Bodhisattva Vows as part of the daily practice (hence, unfair to single out one country as following Bodhisattva Bhumis). That being said it's probably the Ch'an and TianTai syncretism that you like; which is understandable, but it's not really the original form of Chinese Pure Land. As far as Shinran goes, I'm not going to defend him here, but he says a lot of things that can be easily misunderstood.

==================

Going back to the main line of thought going on in the thread: I do not know of a single school of East Asian Buddhism that denies the claim of the Vajrayana/Esoteric practices having the goal of Buddhahood in this very body. There is at least one person on this thread trying to create controversy where there is none. If any one wants Mahayana/Vajrayana sutra references for justification of taking Mahayana/Vajrayana sutras over the Agamas, just crack open any of the definitive sutras from those schools - such as the Lotus Sutra, Avatamsaka, or the Vairocana Sutra.
Last edited by Admin_PC on Fri May 23, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by smcj » Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm

There's a reason why there are two different websites. It is supposed to avoid situations like this. Usually it is pretty successful.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Sönam » Fri May 23, 2014 6:25 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sonam wrote:And FYI there is not such thing as "Buddha's own words" ...
If you don't even have a provional assumption that the Sutta Pitaka is the Buddha's own words then you shouldn't be here nor on any Buddhist Forum whether it's Mahayana, Theravda, or Vajrayana because all schools believe in the authority of the Sutta Pitaka. I have provided cross references in my previous posts here and here
It is not own words, it is the reporting, many years after parinirvana, by some monks that were not even present when Buddha Shakyamuni taught them ... so it's only a conviction. Nevertheless, I too have that conviction.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri May 23, 2014 6:27 pm

Namaste,

I have enjoyed this thread, but it's a shame there's hot blood going on. I think TRC had a valid query, but might be suffering from toe in the mouth.

I believe his questions can be successfully answered.

Yes, the bodhi of a Buddha and an Arahant are the same. The Pali sources, at least, do seem to say this. But Buddha differs from Arahants in two respects: He was first to teach dharma, and by virtue of this, teaches it the best.

For a Mahayanist, this means he helps more beings and does it better. This is a very desirable quality that Mahayanists strive to achieve. The Mahayana sutras often say the distinguishing feature is Buddha possesses infinite skillful means to achieve his great mastery. The diversity of means is how he can help so many beings.

The Mahayana sutras and tantras teach a huge number of such means. Often these many means are condensed into one, like, say, a deity or a mandala. So, because of this reason it is a fast way to learn many means at one time.

The passage from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta does not mean only the Pali sources are valid. He told his folks to go and teach in the common tongues of the places they visited. So Buddha not holding anything back is not contradicted by Mahayana sources in other languages. Only following texts dated to Buddha is a most impossible feat. Scholars who claim to have succeeded in this are only fooling themselves and others. All sources agree the Buddha had amazing transcendental powers. The many ways teachings appear itself is a testament to that. The fact that bodhi and siddh is can come from a recent terms is also great testament to that.

The Mahasatipatthana Sutta's claim to achieve bodhi in seven days is not contradicted by other sutras and tantras either. Most sutras and tantras says a high practitioner can wake up in a short time too. Such language does not prevent someone from following these methods and getting no where, as I'm sure you will agree.

As for verification, that should not be taken in materialistic terms. Buddha invited people to verify his teachings within themselves. Vajrayana lamas are sometimes very amazing, even for those who have met other amazing masters of Theravada. Why that is is hard to say. They sometimes have just that certain something about them. They may also exude bliss or energy to the point one feels it. Such qualities inspire people a lot a lot. It doesn't mean a suttanta approach won't work. Others are inspired by the potency of those texts.

This all is a cause for celebration of one another, not consternation.

Buddhadharma is really and truly THE most amazing phenomena in the history of the universe. How it makes us feel, how it transforms us and empowers us is something wondrous. All of Buddhism is very special and unique. Practitioners, whether high or low are all so so very very precious. Even to think of awakening once is such a precious moment, not just for oneself but in the history of sentient beings. Even one thought has so many karmic ripplings.

Rather than argue we should explain with love. If we have questions, we should ask with humility, always keeping in mind the precious Three Jewels to whom we are addressing.

This is just my few pence.

I pray all are happy.

-Crazyman Sam
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 23, 2014 6:30 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:N

Yes, the bodhi of a Buddha and an Arahant are the same. The Pali sources, at least, do seem to say this. But Buddha differs from Arahants in two respects: He was first to teach dharma, and by virtue of this, teaches it the best.
That quite depends on what you mean by "bodhi".

Buddhadharma is really and truly THE most amazing phenomena in the history of the universe. How it makes us feel, how it transforms us and empowers us is something wondrous. All of Buddhism is very special and unique. Practitioners, whether high or low are all so so very very precious. Even to think of awakening once is such a precious moment, not just for oneself but in the history of sentient beings. Even one thought has so many karmic ripplings.
Indeed.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 23, 2014 6:34 pm

santa100 wrote:
Well, then you must agree that Vajrayana is not the fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools that enable one to become a Fully Enlightened Buddha, SammaSambuddha!
There are no means by which one may become a buddha, gathering the twin stores of merit in a single lifetime and eliminating the two obscurations outside Vajrayāna. I am sorry, but such a teaching does not exist in any sūtra.
I'm for all the Buddhist schools Mahayana and Theravada that challenge the absurd elitist Vajrayana claim here.
Glad you finally revealed your anti-Vajrayāna bias. As Nāgarjuna said while addressing critics of Mahāyāna:
  • Since the teachings of the Tathāgata are not explicit,
    they are not easy to understand.
    Since one vehicle and three vehicles are taught,
    one should guard oneself with equanimity.
    Through equanimity one will not commit a misdeed,
    through aversion there will be a misdeed and there will be no virtue,
    therefore, hatred towards the Mahāyāna
    is not reasonable for one who desires their own welfare.
Those of you who cannot endure it when you see someone speak openly of Vajrayāna principles should apply Nāgārjuna's advice in kind.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri May 23, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by smcj » Fri May 23, 2014 6:37 pm

I'm for all the Buddhist schools Mahayana and Theravada that challenge the absurd elitist Vajrayana claim here.
The thing to do in that case is to apply yourself whole heartedly to some other tradition and prove the claim wrong! That would be a win-win for everyone! :applause:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Sönam » Fri May 23, 2014 6:42 pm

santa100 wrote:That's what I expected you'd say.
Honestly this ego journeying is ... childish and boring. I'm surprized you still argue in this place.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:56 pm

Sonam wrote:Honestly this ego journeying is ... childish and boring. I'm surprized you still argue in this place.
Ah hah, and you were the one who accused me of insulting people. Who is insulting who now? Everyone see the proof right here. Site Admins, please see it for yourself.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 » Fri May 23, 2014 7:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:Glad you finally revealed your anti-Vajrayāna bias.
Another false accusation. Please re-read my exact wording in the previous post. I'm so so glad that I participated in this thread for I have presented the most vivid proof that Vajrayana cannot be the best and fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools. Simply take a good look at the way Vajrayana "practitioners" gang up and abuse those who challenge their claim. It's amazing isn't it. Sometime the best proof is not from the suttas but from what's right in front of you and what you see!!!

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by jiashengrox » Fri May 23, 2014 7:17 pm

JKhedrup wrote:There is a whole thrust of literature that the Tibetans call ཐེག་ཆེན་ བཀའ་སྒྲུབས་ or "Proving Mahayana as the Buddha's Word". The philosophy is worth looking at for those interested in the basis and defense of Mahayana philosophy. I once had a list of works and passages of this genre but have now lost it, which is a shame.
Ven Khedrup, I am not sure if we are suggesting the same thing, but try Chapter 1 or 2 of The Ornament of Mahayana Sutras. I remember there is a whole Chapter in the treatise dedicated to proving the words of the Mahayana to belong to the Buddha. Otherwise, The Chapter 1 of Mahayanasamgraha gives a summarised explanation, with Vasubhandu's bhasya.

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by smcj » Fri May 23, 2014 7:20 pm

Simply take a good look at the way Vajrayana "practitioners" gang up and abuse those who challenge their claim.
David Snyder made two different sandboxes for the children to play in. He did that so they wouldn't fight. The only problem here is that you're playing in the wrong sandbox. That's all. There's another sandbox for kids that like to play the way you do. I personally don't go over to the other sandbox at all because it is too stressful for me to try to participate without offending someone, or more realistically offending a lot of people. It's not that complicated.
Last edited by smcj on Fri May 23, 2014 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 » Fri May 23, 2014 7:27 pm

smcj wrote:David Snyder made two different sandboxes for the children to play in. He did that so they wouldn't fight. The only problem here is that you're playing in the wrong sandbox. That's all.
As far as I know, David Snyder made two forums for all who's interested in the teaching of the Buddha, not two gangster territories such that someone with a curious mind who happens to walk into the 'hood will be horribly maimed by the gang members.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by smcj » Fri May 23, 2014 7:34 pm

Dharma Wheel: "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism"
Mahayana and Vajrayana texts, teachings and premises are accepted here.

Dhamma Wheel: "A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada"
Here the Pali Canon is accepted as the definitive, and by some the sole authentic teaching of the Buddha. The undertone is that all the other teachings and texts are corruptions, although Snyder doesn't allow people to harp on it. Speaking for myself, my feelings are not offended at all by this. Also I personally have a great deal of respect for the Shravakayana.

But in any case good fences make good neighbors.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Adi » Fri May 23, 2014 7:47 pm

How interesting people's different perceptions are and what that says about how the perceive the world around them. Some see different sandboxes with children at play, others see gangster territories and horrific violence, yet it appears they are talking about the same thing.

It's :hug: versus :guns: :jawdrop: :crying: :guns:

Adi

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Konchog1 » Fri May 23, 2014 7:48 pm

smcj wrote:Dharma Wheel: "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism"
Mahayana and Vajrayana texts, teachings and premises are accepted here.

Dhamma Wheel: "A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada"
Here the Pali Canon is accepted as the definitive, and by some the sole authentic teaching of the Buddha. The undertone is that all the other teachings and texts are corruptions, although Snyder doesn't allow people to harp on it. Speaking for myself, my feelings are not offended at all by this. Also I personally have a great deal of respect for the Shravakayana.

But in any case good fences make good neighbors.
It's interesting that the Mahayana has a variety of vows against disparaging Shravakas, as well as Sutras, Shastras, and prayers upholding the Shravakayana. But it isn't the other way around.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by JKhedrup » Fri May 23, 2014 7:53 pm

Ha! Thought so. You've got more in you than just Gelug! Don't worry, I'm the same Gelug/Kagyu mix. :twothumbsup:
I was blessed to receive teachings from HE Tai Situ and an initiation from HH Karmapa during my recent trip to India. Unfortunately because of that Indian sojourn I am not able to get the time off to go to the present teachings in Germany with HHK.
I'm so so glad that I participated in this thread for I have presented the most vivid proof that Vajrayana cannot be the best and fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools. Simply take a good look at the way Vajrayana "practitioners" gang up and abuse those who challenge their claim
I won't even tell the story of what I was told by a friend of mine last time I was in Thailand regarding my "philosophical corruption".

Anyways, if I was going to judge any school of thought by its practitioners, I'd go with one of the Hindu sects. The Hindu people are for the most part more chill and not as earnest as the Buddhists, more fun to be around.
Ven Khedrup, I am not sure if we are suggesting the same thing, but try Chapter 1 or 2 of The Ornament of Mahayana Sutras. I remember there is a whole Chapter in the treatise dedicated to proving the words of the Mahayana to belong to the Buddha.
:anjali: Thank you Jiashen. You sure do know your way around the Classical Mahayana scriptures, I wish I had your knowledge in that regard. I will take another look through the ornament of Mahayana Sutras, it has been a very long time. (You don't often see it presented at Dharma centres!)
Last edited by JKhedrup on Fri May 23, 2014 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri May 23, 2014 7:55 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Anyways, if I was going to judge any school of thought by its practitioners, I'd go with one of the Hindu sects. The Hindu people are for the most part more chill and not as earnest as the Buddhists, more fun to be around.
:jawdrop:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Norwegian » Fri May 23, 2014 7:58 pm

The only problem with this thread, have been users santa100 and TRC. As I posted earlier, three parts of the TOS have been consistently violated: "No trolling", "No proselytizing", and "No disruption. Dharma Wheel is an environment for the discussion of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism."

Why can we not have threads where people ask questions and people answer these questions, without secterian trolls hijacking the threads and puking their noise on the threads?

I wouldn't go to Dhamma Wheel and talk garbage about the suttas, first and foremost because I consider the suttas to be sublime and indispensable reading for any Dharma practicioner regardless of tradition followed. But then I am also not an immature jerk so I wouldn't do such a thing at all in the first place...
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The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by smcj » Fri May 23, 2014 8:01 pm

Adi wrote:How interesting people's different perceptions are and what that says about how the perceive the world around them. Some see different sandboxes with children at play, others see gangster territories and horrific violence, yet it appears they are talking about the same thing.

It's :hug: versus :guns: :jawdrop: :crying: :guns:

Adi
Oh I have no illusion about what would happen if I went over there and spoke my mind. It would be like in "Despicable Me 2" when the sweet adorable minions turn blue. :jawdrop:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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