Enlightenment

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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LastLegend
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:33 am

oushi wrote: Because:"We are not able to know it, and we are not able to accept the change without knowing the consequences". The price is simply to high. If you can pass this point of giving up yourself, then I admire you.
I don't know if I have passed this point. Change happens regardless of knowing the consequences or not. How much do we know ourselves to make definite declarations?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:35 am

LastLegend wrote:Change happens regardless of knowing the consequences or not.
It always was and will be like that. The problem lies in resistance to this change. This stress is the mother of suffering.
LastLegend wrote:How much do we know ourselves to make definite declarations?
This doubt that you are presenting here, is precisely the barrier I was talking about. The question is, how to pass it without knowing the other side. Some use belief to become accustomed to it. Some probe it, walking around mirage and hitting it with a stick. But it always boils down to one thing. Knowledge. If you enter a dark room that happens to be your room that you have full knowledge of, no resistance, stress or fear will arise. But if you don't know the place at all, those negative feelings will arise as a natural response. Since there is no way to know everything about everything, we must find another way.
Emptiness of all phenomena. As long as this one is not realized we will, more or less, resist the unknown.
Knowledge needs to be taken out of the equation, because it's knowledge which tells us what we should strive for, and what we should run from. Knowledge is the source of good and evil.
Last edited by oushi on Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LastLegend
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:43 am

oushi wrote: This doubt that you are presenting here, is precisely the barrier I was talking about. The question is, how to pass it without knowing the other side. Some use belief to become accustomed to it. Some probe it, walking around mirage and hitting it with a stick. But it always boils down to one thing. Knowledge. If you enter a dark room that happens to be your room that you have full knowledge of, no resistance, stress or fear will arise. But if you don't know the place at all, those negative feelings will arise as a natural response. Since there is no way to know everything about everything, we must find another way. Emptiness of all phenomena. As long as this one is not realized we will, more or less, resist the unknown.
So you are presenting a problem that has no solution. I propose belief because I don't know; I don't know myself. So I ask you what are you?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:54 am

LastLegend wrote:So you are presenting a problem that has no solution.
There is no ultimate solution in the sphere of knowing.
I propose belief because I don't know; I don't know myself.
But it is obvious for you, that you rely on knowing, isn't it? Why do you rely on knowing, when you admit yourself, that you don't know?
LastLegend wrote:So I ask you what are you?
It is irrelevant. This is the direction.
If we rely on knowing, and always have been, then it will be confusing, counter-intuitive. Practicing prajnaparamita helps.
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LastLegend
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:05 am

oushi wrote: There is no ultimate solution in the sphere of knowing.
But it is obvious for you, that you rely on knowing, isn't it? Why do you rely on knowing, when you admit yourself, that you don't know?
It is true then I rely on knowing. What do I really know?
It is irrelevant. This is the direction.

:lol:

Maybe I misread you since you spoke of relying on knowledge. Then you said knowledge needs to be taken out of the equation. How can you do both? Or can you do both?

But then again do you know yourself what are you? Or this question does not concern you?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:20 am

LastLegend wrote:It is true then I rely on knowing. What do I really know?
You know... everything that you know. Do you know something that you don't know? :smile:
LastLegend wrote:Maybe I misread you since you spoke of relying on knowledge. Then you said knowledge needs to be taken out of the equation. How can you do both? Or can you do both?
Relying on knowledge is what we do, and are not willing to give it up so easily. The golden chain that doesn't have to bind us, as we are clinging to it with all our strength. Now ask "why?" five times, until you get to the bottom. To take knowledge out of the equation is to not develop truth on its basis. If you remove knowledge of yourself, where are you? It is irrelevant, as the self does not even arise.
But then again do you know yourself what are you? Or this question does not concern you?
You are asking if I know what I really am. Since It is my knowing, it cannot be me. Since it cannot be me, it will never be what I really am. If I am without knowing, that is what I really am, but I cannot know it. This happens to aligns with "Without knowing and without being affected by anything, this is the awareness of the buddhas." from Mahaprajnapramita.
It is the same for all of us, but the difference is, we think that we need to know it.
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LastLegend
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:04 am

oushi wrote: You know... everything that you know. Do you know something that you don't know? :smile:
Yes, I know my dreams. But I don't know why my certain dreams are very odd.

Relying on knowledge is what we do, and are not willing to give it up so easily. The golden chain that doesn't have to bind us, as we are clinging to it with all our strength. Now ask "why?" five times, until you get to the bottom. To take knowledge out of the equation is to not develop truth on its basis. If you remove knowledge of yourself, where are you? It is irrelevant, as the self does not even arise.
What gives your courage? I have not overcome my fear.
You are asking if I know what I really am. Since It is my knowing, it cannot be me. Since it cannot be me, it will never be what I really am. If I am without knowing, that is what I really am, but I cannot know it. This happens to aligns with "Without knowing and without being affected by anything, this is the awareness of the buddhas." from Mahaprajnapramita.
It is the same for all of us, but the difference is, we think that we need to know it.
How can you be certain of if I am without knowing, that is what I really am, but I cannot know it? In other words, how can you be certain of yourself?
If without knowing and being affected by anything, how are we different from a rock?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:45 am

LastLegend wrote:But I don't know why my certain dreams are very odd.
Is, this knowledge of odd nature of your dreams, inherently existent somewhere in your dreams? Or is it something applied by you, developed from what you already know about reality?
LastLegend wrote:What gives your courage? I have not overcome my fear.

Because you still think that there is something that needs to be done by you, in this life. Fear comes as a warning of possible failure in fulfilling those expectations.
LastLegend wrote:If without knowing and being affected by anything, how are we different from a rock?
I don't remember being a rock, so my answer will not be that precise :smile: . But, there is a certain law in motion, which is called impermanence. It flows through time, appearing as a river of interdependent events. What control we have over it? It looks like we have only one, very simple mechanism. We can allow it (being like a rock) or suppress it with stress. Being like a "rock", there is no stress, so no suppression of knowing. Knowing goes in and out without causing stress (out of the equation). Do you think that rocks have something to attain? If you think that you will become motionless like a rock, try asking a mime how much stress and effort does it cost to remain motionless.
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:14 am

oushi wrote: Is, this knowledge of odd nature of your dreams, inherently existent somewhere in your dreams? Or is it something applied by you, developed from what you already know about reality?

I cannot be certain of what I know. Then how come you say I know everything that I know?
Because you still think that there is something that needs to be done by you, in this life. Fear comes as a warning of possible failure in fulfilling those expectations.
You completely eradicated your fear? How?
I don't remember being a rock, so my answer will not be that precise :smile: . But, there is a certain law in motion, which is called impermanence. It flows through time, appearing as a river of interdependent events. What control we have over it? It looks like we have only one, very simple mechanism. We can allow it (being like a rock) or suppress it with stress. Being like a "rock", there is no stress, so no suppression of knowing. Knowing goes in and out without causing stress (out of the equation). Do you think that rocks have something to attain? If you think that you will become motionless like a rock, try asking a mime how much stress and effort does it cost to remain motionless.
How long can you remain like a rock for? We are not a rock.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:47 am

LastLegend wrote:I cannot be certain of what I know. Then how come you say I know everything that I know?
Uncertainty is a specific form of knowing which takes knowing as its object. There is no free floating knowing and uncertainty that we happen to come across. Both knowledge and uncertainty is "yours". I think that your doubts arise toward the validity of your knowing. Is that what I know, the true knowing? Is this what you mean?
LastLegend wrote:You completely eradicated your fear? How?
Karma is not a devils toy to torment poor people. It is a mechanism enabling the realization of our wishes. To gain something, you need to pay for it and suffering is a way of showing you the way. Once more, As long as you think that there is something that needs to be done by you, in this world, you will get reborn until you address those needs.
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:11 pm

oushi wrote: Uncertainty is a specific form of knowing which takes knowing as its object. There is no free floating knowing and uncertainty that we happen to come across. Both knowledge and uncertainty is "yours". I think that your doubts arise toward the validity of your knowing. Is that what I know, the true knowing? Is this what you mean?
Are you certain of yourself of what you know? Belief works for me.
Karma is not a devils toy to torment poor people. It is a mechanism enabling the realization of our wishes. To gain something, you need to pay for it and suffering is a way of showing you the way. Once more, As long as you think that there is something that needs to be done by you, in this world, you will get reborn until you address those needs.
You are saying if there is nothing to be done by me in this world, this will address my fear?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:18 pm

LastLegend wrote:Are you certain of yourself what you know? Belief works for me.
I define certainty as "no doubt". I don't doubt what I know, and I am not looking for any knowledge.
What do you mean by belief here? What does it mean that it works for you?
LastLegend wrote:You are saying if there is nothing to be done by me in this world, this will address my fear?
Yes, but it does not mean that you have do something about what you are doing now. I would say that you need to stop doing something about what you are doing. I remember reading Longchenpa in Jewel Ship sayin: "Don't go again what you do".
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by LastLegend » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:43 pm

oushi wrote: I define certainty as "no doubt". I don't doubt what I know, and I am not looking for any knowledge.
What do you mean by belief here? What does it mean that it works for you?
Do you see clearly in your dreams?

I am not looking for any knowledge either. I doubt what I know. Therefore, I have belief. It works for me because I don't have the courage or strength right now to do this on my own.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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oushi
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by oushi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:20 pm

LastLegend wrote:Do you see clearly in your dreams?
I can only guess what you mean by this question. My actions in my dreams are unconscious, so I can say that they are contaminated by delusion.
Even in my daily life, actions triggered below the threshold of my awareness are stuffed with intentions. When I notice such a shadow, I shed some light on it, see its ultimate irrelevance, and it stops bother me. Just that.
LastLegend wrote:It works for me because I don't have the courage or strength right now to do this on my own.
Whatever works for you is good.
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:23 pm

Kaore wrote:Hi, this is the topic I wanted to see talked recently here. I have wondered about this word 'Enlightenment', not from a dictionary definition but from some experience of what this word would mean to us in everyday life.

For me there is clear evidence that enlightenment is about having some light for ourselves by means of practice, whatever practice means to you. And not only it's about light but it should be increasingly enlightening in the way it gets lighter and brighter hence 'enlightening'.

It should gets more satisfying through its brightening and increasingly useful to protect against darkness. My question is whether or not you have some sourced interesting stuff or some experience about what this word 'Enlightenment' mean to you.
It means discovering your natural wisdom and then practicing to keep that mindfulness until it's an unbroken stream 24/7.
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Challenge23 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Kaore wrote:Hi, this is the topic I wanted to see talked recently here. I have wondered about this word 'Enlightenment', not from a dictionary definition but from some experience of what this word would mean to us in everyday life.

For me there is clear evidence that enlightenment is about having some light for ourselves by means of practice, whatever practice means to you. And not only it's about light but it should be increasingly enlightening in the way it gets lighter and brighter hence 'enlightening'.

It should gets more satisfying through its brightening and increasingly useful to protect against darkness. My question is whether or not you have some sourced interesting stuff or some experience about what this word 'Enlightenment' mean to you.
I think that Enlightenment at the end of the day is one of the articles of faith that make Buddhism a religion as opposed to a philosophy. What I mean by an "article of faith" is that it is something that a person of normal capacity that is not of the religion in question would not take as a given. The thing with Enlightenment is that we can say what side effect and what it doesn't contain(seeker242 listed those factors quite nicely) but we can't say what it is exactly. In order to demonstrate why this is a problem I'll use as an example.

For breakfast I had something that was not meat, not grapes, and not spinach. It was filling, had fat, and is used as a component for at least one other popular dish. Now, you could be forgiven if you thought I had cheese because it fits all of the criteria(it actually was an avocado). I'm sure you could find several other foods that could fit the bill. Enlightenment is exactly the same way. Looking at the criteria laid down in the Sutras, you can come up with a number of scenarios of what Enlightenment is that all fit the bill. Some of them sound good(freeing consciousness from subject, object, and action, which is how it is defined in some Tibetan schools) while some of them(to me, at least) are straight up horrifying(the consciousness dissolves like atheists believe happens no matter what we do, which is how some Thervadin schools look at it). Of course, unlike what one had for breakfast Enlightenment is something that is beyond the ability to convey in words which means you can't say if it is something that you would actually want to attain or not. Therefore Buddhists take it on faith that Enlightenment is a good thing that normal humans can work towards and eventually attain.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

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