Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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ChampionOfWorlds
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Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by ChampionOfWorlds »

It's quite hard, adjusting to Buddhism. I'm a very passionate and determined individual. If i'm passionate about something, I'll give it my all, 100 percent and persevere. If im not passionate, I'll do enough to satisfy achieving decently. I love debating and the previous ties into it, I guess you could say im very argumentative, but i just love debating, and arguments a bit. I love martial art, debating, occultism and other things of this nature. I argue with people sometimes, quite a bit, not seriously yet kind of an annoying-argument feel to it, I can sometimes succumb to the arguing and my impulses are to respond with insults etc... I'm changing but I still have the moments but hey, im getting better right :smile: i just remember what Buddha said in a sutra where he talks about sharing company, eating together with someone else if you return insults, return taunts, return a berating to someone who has done these same things to you, but like Buddha, I don't want to eat with the person, they can have it all :)

Also, right thought, trying not to have bad thoughts and hold grudges. If i dislike someone, thats fine, but i think part of right speech is to not hold grudges, that inner grudge and small hate(?) that can eat away at you.

thanks people, would like to hear your experiences too...
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kirtu
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by kirtu »

ChampionOfWorlds wrote:I argue with people sometimes, quite a bit, not seriously yet kind of an annoying-argument feel to it, I can sometimes succumb to the arguing and my impulses are to respond with insults etc...
Why? Have you never been wrong? And is there any benefit to this way of interacting with others?
Also, right thought, trying not to have bad thoughts and hold grudges. If i dislike someone, thats fine, but i think part of right speech is to not hold grudges, that inner grudge and small hate(?) that can eat away at you.
Grudges? Why not just stay away from people if you hold them badly in your mind? Better, focus on their positive aspects. At some point in a past life you and this other person were very close (the canonical imagery is that they were your mother in a past life - in the sutta that this teaching is taken from the Buddha was a bit more nuanced).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by dzogchungpa »

What is there to adjust? Arguments, insults, etc. are about as Buddhist as it gets. As Conze says:
It would, of course, be an exaggeration to claim that Buddhist writings are entirely free from invective and vituperation. Even in some of the most sacred writings, such as the Prajnaparamita and The Lotus of the Good Law, we find a somewhat deplorable inclination on the part of the writers to consign fellow Buddhists, who think differently from them, to Hell for long periods of time. What has, however, prevented this natural exuberance of theological spite from hardening itself into deliberate intolerance, has been the strong sense of individual and temperental differences with which the Buddhists are normally strongly imbued. The Dharma is not really a dogma, but it is essentially a path.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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LastLegend
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by LastLegend »

Argue for the sake of it or for learning?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by dzogchungpa »

LastLegend wrote:Argue for the sake of it or for learning?
Why not both?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
ChampionOfWorlds
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by ChampionOfWorlds »

Usually, they start with intellectual debate, and then can turn into petty arguments. Most of the time, thats how it is. Though sometimes, I do start them by saying silly things, however i'll stop it.
I love debate, action, a hands-on intellectual nature.
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kirtu
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by kirtu »

ChampionOfWorlds wrote:Usually, they start with intellectual debate, and then can turn into petty arguments. Most of the time, thats how it is. Though sometimes, I do start them by saying silly things, however i'll stop it.
I love debate, action, a hands-on intellectual nature.
Intellectual debates can be useful. But arguments disturb peoples' mind and can create ill-will.

:namaste:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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LastLegend
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by LastLegend »

dzogchungpa wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Argue for the sake of it or for learning?
Why not both?
I'd rather argue to learn about myself, my own suffering.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by dzogchungpa »

LastLegend wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Argue for the sake of it or for learning?
Why not both?
I'd rather argue to learn about myself, my own suffering.
That's very good.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Alfredo
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by Alfredo »

Insults are kind of traditional in Tibetan debate!
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avisitor
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by avisitor »

Someone said to me that arguments do not get one closer to Buddhism.
To make my point .. here is a quote I like ...


If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality.
If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.
Bodhidharma
plwk
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by plwk »

If these are of any assistance...
Brahmajala Sutta
'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, engage in wrangling argumentation, (saying to one another):
"You don't understand this doctrine and discipline. I am the one who understands this doctrine and discipline." —
"How can you understand this doctrine and discipline?" — "You're practising the wrong way. I'm practising the right way." —
"I'm being consistent. You're inconsistent." —
"What should have been said first you said last, what should have been said last you said first." —
"What you took so long to think out has been confuted." —
"Your doctrine has been refuted. You're defeated. Go, try to save your doctrine, or disentangle yourself now if you can" —
the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrangling argumentation.'
More here: 1 2 3 4 5
The Lotus Sutra
Further, he should not frivolously discuss the Dharma for the sake of argument.
Sūtra of the Upāsaka Precepts
Bodhisattvas with the Eight Wisdom-Knowledges
“Those who are equipped with these eight wisdom-knowledges can speak with sixteen qualities:
(1) speak timely, (2) speak earnestly,
(3) speak orderly, (4) speak amicably,
(5) speak according to the meaning [of the Dharma], (6) speak joyfully,
(7) speak according to their minds, (8) speak without belittling the listeners,
(9) speak without rebuking the listeners, (10) speak in accordance with the Dharma,
(11) speak to benefit both themselves and others, (12) speak without rambling,
(13) speak to explain the meaning aptly, (14) speak truly,
(15) speak without arrogance, and (16) speak without seeking worldly requitals.

“Such speakers can also listen with sixteen qualities:
(1) listen always, (2) listen with delight,
(3) listen intently, (4) listen respectfully,
(5) listen without finding faults, (6) listen without seeking a debate,
(7) listen without seeking to surpass the speaker, (8) listen without belittling the speaker,
(9) listen without belittling the Dharma, (10) listen without belittling themselves,
(11) listen with a mind free from the five coverings, (12) listen in order to accept and uphold [the teachings],
(13) listen in order to remove their five desires, (14) listen with faith,
(15) listen in order to tame sentient beings, and (16) listen in order to suspend [in meditation] the hearing faculty.
“Good man, those who have acquired the eight wisdom-knowledges can both speak and listen well, and can benefit both themselves and others.
Those without these eight wisdom-knowledges cannot benefit both themselves and others.
Sūtra of the Upāsaka Precepts
The Ten Evil Karmas
“The three [evil] paths of the body are killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct.
The four [evil] paths of the voice are false speech, divisive speech, abusive speech, and suggestive speech.
The three [evil] paths of the mind are greed, anger, and delusion [the wrong views]. These ten evil karmas are the roots of all evils.
As sentient beings differ in their realms of existence, life-paths, modes of birth, bodies, lives, and names, they do innumerable karmas [good and evil], not just ten.

“Of the ten karmas, the three mind karmas are called karmas, but not paths, and the seven karmas done with one’s body and voice are called karmas, also called paths. By doing the ten good or evil karmas, either alone or with others, one will receive good or evil requitals. These karmas cause sentient beings to be good or evil. Therefore, the wise do not even think of doing evil karmas, much less purposely do them with their bodies [or voices].

“Know that one who allows one’s afflictions to take command walks the ten evil paths. If one shatters the bondage of one’s afflictions and their command, one walks the ten good paths. Suppose someone has taken preventive measures. If, without premeditation, he accidentally does evil karma, he is not guilty of the sin of this karma.

“Therefore, the wise diligently train in the ten good karmas in order to realize the Four Noble Truths.
If one plans to do evil but fails to do it, one is not guilty of any sin. Therefore, the wise diligently train in the ten good karmas. Sentient beings that train in the ten good karmas can increase their lifespans, and internal and external things. While one’s afflictions cause the ten evil karmas to increase, freedom from one’s afflictions causes the ten good karmas to increase.
It's quite hard, adjusting to Buddhism. I'm a very passionate and determined individual
"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once.
Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice.
And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?
There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close.
Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it.
Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings.
Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings.
There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises.
When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates.
Having contemplated, one makes an exertion.
Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it

Kitagiri Sutta
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lobster
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Re: Adjusting to Buddhism - keeping cool, argumenents

Post by lobster »

ChampionOfWorlds wrote:thanks people, would like to hear your experiences too...
I only argue/debate with people likely to win. This way I learn. You on the other hand argue for the sake of it as we both know and you admit. So consider this a statement of fact. If you wish to argue about that . . . find someone else to indulge you.

Hope that helps :namaste:
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