Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

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LastLegend
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Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by LastLegend » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:49 am

Ubhatovyanjañakas[edit]
The word ubhatovyanjañaka is usually thought to describe people who have both male and female sexual characteristics: hermaphrodites[11] (intersex). In the Vinaya, it is said that ubhatovyanjañaka should not be ordained, on account of the possibility that they would entice a fellow monk or nun into having sex.

Paṇḍakas[edit]
The paṇḍaka is a complex category that is variously defined in different Buddhist texts. In the earliest texts, the word seems to refer to a socially stigmatized class of promiscuous, passive, probably transvestite homosexuals, who were possibly prostitutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_a ... rientation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Are there any sutras or suttas that discuss the cause for rebirth as a ubhatovyanjanaka and pandaka? I read about the precept regarding sexual misconduct in Vietnamese. It said that the sexual misconduct leads to rebirth as a neither male or female while abstinence from sexual misconduct will lead to rebirth as a 100% male or female.

Not trying to cause a storm here. It is reasonable to believe that rebirth as a male, female, animal, or god is a result from past life karma.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:00 am

LastLegend wrote:Not trying to cause a storm here. It is reasonable to believe that rebirth as a male, female, animal, or god is a result from past life karma.
What else would it be due to?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by LastLegend » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:06 am

Don't know sir. :lol:
NAMO AMITABHA
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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

emptydreams
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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by emptydreams » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:06 am

I'm gonna just say that my conclusion to this term (which i have observed and inferred from the various texts where the term appears) is that it dosent refer to complex homosexuals but rather anyone with a non vanilla sexual fetish. In other words, the correct term for this is sexual deviant as the term has been used for other examples in the sutras where the individual has sexual attraction towards other objects (cant remember, but its something along the lines).

basically, a pandaka is a man who is aroused with anything other than a woman, or a woman that is aroused with anything other than a man.

on the whole why we were born gay thing, i think the most important thing is to just try to live a normal life rather than finding out why and how we were born gay. It's already too late anyway, so might as well make the best out of it.

The suffering of a gay man is to experience the mental sufferings of a woman in a man's body. Because gay men do think like women. Science has proven this. (im gay so yeah...) Also gays are subjected to the same pressure from other gays to look perfect and thin and gorgeous, like how society expects women to conform to an ideal, so you can imagine how most gays are already having a hard time even among themselves. Lasting relationships are much harder and rarer to come by. You get judged by your appearance and appearance alone. At the same time, gay sex is not as enjoyable as porn or some gays think it may be. And all these are on top of the discriminations the straights give us. What could cause this kind of suffering?

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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:19 am

emptydreams wrote:The suffering of a gay man is to experience the mental sufferings of a woman in a man's body. Because gay men do think like women. Science has proven this.
Oh really? Sources? References?
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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:55 am

emptydreams wrote:I'm gonna just say that my conclusion to this term (which i have observed and inferred from the various texts where the term appears) is that it dosent refer to complex homosexuals but rather anyone with a non vanilla sexual fetish. In other words, the correct term for this is sexual deviant as the term has been used for other examples in the sutras where the individual has sexual attraction towards other objects (cant remember, but its something along the lines).

basically, a pandaka is a man who is aroused with anything other than a woman, or a woman that is aroused with anything other than a man.
paṇḍaka literally means rejoicing in, or praising of, unhappiness, pain, trouble or sin.
on the whole why we were born gay thing, i think the most important thing is to just try to live a normal life rather than finding out why and how we were born gay. It's already too late anyway, so might as well make the best out of it.
Normal??? Too late???
The suffering of a gay man is to experience the mental sufferings of a woman in a man's body. Because gay men do think like women. Science has proven this.
So a gay man that likes to have an "active" sexual role is thinking like a women???
(im gay so yeah...)
If you are gay then you are suffering from some serious self-hatred and homophobia my friend.
Lasting relationships are much harder and rarer to come by.
Not true at all. I have gay friends whose relationship has outlasted all those of my straight friends (including myself)
At the same time, gay sex is not as enjoyable as porn or some gays think it may be.
???

Let's not get carried away here. When one takes a vow of celibacy it is logical that one should try to avoid intimate contact with people that one may feel sexually attracted to. So it "makes sense" that a male or female homosexual would not be assisted in their attempt to refrain from sexual behaviour if they are constantly in intimate contact with people of the sex that they are attracted to. No, I am not saying that all homosexuals are crazed sex addicts that cannot "control" their urges and need to be kept seperate from members of the same sex, in the same way that not all straights are... and need to be kept seperate from members of the opposite sex. It is just an arrangement that is conducive to assisting the practice of celibacy (brahmacharya).

Imagine the organisational difficulty around organising quarters for a homosexual monastic.

Now I know there are plenty of homosexual monastics out there, and I rejoice in the merit they are accumulating due to their capacity to hold their vows of celibacy, under their given circumstances :bow: and especially given the homophobia that exists in many Buddhist communities, but be careful about generalising the raison d'être of a Vinaya rule into non-monastic community standards. It just doesn't work that way. Buddha, in his teachings on Right Action (including those on sexual behaviour), never condemned homosexuality.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by emptydreams » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:06 am

Mkoll wrote:
emptydreams wrote:The suffering of a gay man is to experience the mental sufferings of a woman in a man's body. Because gay men do think like women. Science has proven this.
Oh really? Sources? References?
oh hey, here you go

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008 ... psychology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by Mkoll » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:53 am

emptydreams wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
emptydreams wrote:The suffering of a gay man is to experience the mental sufferings of a woman in a man's body. Because gay men do think like women. Science has proven this.
Oh really? Sources? References?
oh hey, here you go

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008 ... psychology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting, thanks for the link.

But a study with a 90 person sample can hardly be called scientific proof. And besides, the study is said to have found similarities in the brain's physical structure, not patterns of thought.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Rebirth as a ubhatovyanjañaka and paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:55 pm

This may be an old thread, but I think the conversation is relevant.
emptydreams wrote:
Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:06 am
basically, a pandaka is a man who is aroused with anything other than a woman, or a woman that is aroused with anything other than a man.
There's very little basis for this claim. Our tradition's literature consists of a slew of examples of monks and laypeople who have engaged in licentious behavior, including necrophilia, bestiality, and certain homosexual acts and they are not deemed "paṇḍaka." From what I've gathered on studies of gender and sexual behavior throughout the history of Buddhism, sexual perversion itself does not warrant the label.

The five categories of paṇḍaka seem to differ in name between Mahayana and Śrāvaka sources, but for the sake of this board's affiliation, I will tend toward the former. In A Dictionary of Chinese Buddhist Terms by William Edward Soothill and Lewis Hodous we have two following two entries:

1) 五種不男
The five kinds of 般荼迦 paṇḍakas, i. e. eunuchs, or impotent males: by birth; emasculation; uncontrollable emission; hermaphrodite; impotent for half the month; they are known as 扇搋 Sandha; 留拏? Runda; 伊梨沙掌拏 Irṣyāpaṇḍaka; 半擇迦 Paṇḍaka; 博叉 Pakṣapaṇḍaka; there are numerous subdivisions.

2) 般荼迦
The general name for eunuchs. The five classes with various degrees of sexual impotence: (1) 扇搋 ṣaṇḍha (ṣaṇḍha paṇḍaka); by birth impotent. (2) 留拏 rugṇa or ruṇḍa paṇḍaka; "maimed," i.e. emasculated males. (3) 砂梨沙掌拏 īrṣyā (īrṣyā paṇḍaka); those whose sexual desires are only aroused by jealousy. (4) 半擇迦 paṇḍaka are eunuchs in general, but in this category are described as hermaphrodites. (5) 博叉 pakṣa (pakṣa pāṇḍaka [sp?]); impotent during one-half of the month. A newer classification distinguishes those with incomplete from those with complete organs; the incomplete being (1) ṣaṇḍha, or jātipaṇḍaka as above; and (2) emasculated males; the complete are the others; the fifth being stimulated when bathing or evacuating. Other forms: 般吒; 半托; 半擇迦 tr. 黃門

The five would then be equivalent to those found in other traditions, namely:
1. 扇搋 (jāti/napuṁsaka)
2. 留拏 (āpat)
3. 伊利沙 (īrṣyā)
4. 觸抱 (āsaktaprādurbhāvī)
5. 博叉(pakṣa)


Allan Bomhard wrote an essay conjecturing the meaning of the term as well, and while some information is useful I'd have to disagree with his translation of pakkhapaṇḍaka, as the Sanskrit equivalent is indeed pakṣa and not phakka as assumed.

It would seem that different commentarial traditions have some distinct notions on the details of each type of character displayed by the paṇḍaka. But it would seem that the one thing in common with them is that the paṇḍaka cannot understand the Dharma due to, what would seem to be, a deeply ingrained inability for sensual (particularly sexual) renunciation.

The female equivalent is less clear, but my knowledge is limited atm.
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