Another cult?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Punya
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Another cult?

Post by Punya » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:51 pm

I'm going to open up a discussion started here http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=18012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to a wider audience.

The teacher we are talking about us known by these names or instrumental in these groups:

ewcp, East West Culture Project, The Bodhicitta Project, B1, Shang Longrik Gyatso Rinpoche, Khenchen Mawei Wangqiu Longli Jiacuo Rinpoche, 香隆立嘉措仁波切, Master Wang, Wang Laoshi, Khenchen Dorje Rinpoche

I am not a former or current student. I just care about unsuspecting individuals getting caught up such groups and about bringing the dharma into disrepute. You will, of course, want to draw your own conclusions.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

Punya
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Punya » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:07 pm

I agree it's hard to prove or disprove the authenticity of this teacher. I'm going to refer to him as Shang "Rinpoche" (SR) but as you can see below I still have reservations. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

Some further questions and comments to the DW user "connected":

What is the name of SR's guru, and can you tell us a little but about him/her including lineage connections? How do we know SR's guru has authorised him to teach? There's no information about SR's tulku status ie who he is an incarnation of. Also, what connection does SR have to other modern Kagyu masters?

Mentioning two Kagyu lineages and some well known figures from the Kagyu lineages doesn't mean SR has geniune links to them. It's also pretty easy to mention receiving teachings from HH 16th Karmapa, HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, et al without verification. I'd also be interesting in hearing about any other modern teachers who are from Tsalpa Kagyu lineage from anyone on DW.

Even if you can provide further evidence of plausible lineage connections it's still possible for geniune lineage masters to go astray given the temptations of the modern world. There's plenty of evidence of that in general. And here's another discussion that raises concerns about SR specifically http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi ... hilit=ewcp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

If he is a Tibetan teacher why is there no mention anywhere of him speaking Tibetan? How could he receive teachings from the aforementioned teachers if he is not fluent in Tibetan?

Why are there no photos of SR apart from on the cult website? Could it be the potential need to adopt another alias in the future?

If SR was invited by Quang Minh temple to teach where is the evidence? There's no mention of the event on their website, calendar or Facebook page.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

Punya
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Punya » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:11 pm

Correction: You didn't say SR had received teachings directly from HHK or DKR. My apologies.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

DGA
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Re: Another cult?

Post by DGA » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:14 am

Punya wrote: The teacher we are talking about us known by these names or instrumental in these groups:

ewcp, East West Culture Project, The Bodhicitta Project, B1, Shang Longrik Gyatso Rinpoche, Khenchen Mawei Wangqiu Longli Jiacuo Rinpoche, 香隆立嘉措仁波切, Master Wang, Wang Laoshi, Khenchen Dorje Rinpoche.
Can anyone confirm:

1. that this catalogue of names corresponds to the same person & organizations affiliated with him and if so

2. that this same person to whom all these names corresponds is the same person who is claimed to be invited by the Vietnamese temple in Melbourne to teach?

And if 1 & 2 are true, then can someone offer some evidence in support of the claim that the said temple is sponsoring his visit to Melbourne?

can we get some clarity on these?

Punya
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Punya » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:15 pm

I have to admit to getting sidetracked. Connected said "check SR's credentials" and I said "what credentials" and all connected has provided is a list of tibetan teachers but no biography of SR that explains his connection to these teachers. Beyond that I have no evidence that SR is not who he claims to be.

My main point was to highlight the concerns raised in the links. Individuals will need to make own their own minds. I note some questions posed in this and the previous thread remain unanswered and there are other contradictions if anyone cares to do a bit of web research but I don't propose to pursue this topic any further.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

DGA
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Re: Another cult?

Post by DGA » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:29 pm

Punya wrote:I have to admit to getting sidetracked. Connected said "check SR's credentials" and I said "what credentials" and all connected has provided is a list of tibetan teachers but no biography of SR that explains his connection to these teachers. Beyond that I have no evidence that SR is not who he claims to be.
My earlier post was intended to help us make sense of the claims connected has made in the light of the material you've gathered. How does all this square up--if it does square up? I'd like to hear from people who have been involved with Shang and his organizations, or from connected, clarifying these matters. I'd also like to see anything independent of their organization that can verify any of these claims, or conclusively disprove them, in English.

I think it's productive for us to continue this discussion so long as we're evidence-based and objective about it. You've raised an important question. Let's see if any answers emerge.

odysseus
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Re: Another cult?

Post by odysseus » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:19 pm

I´m not going to research if this is another cult. I just want to say that there are some strange teachings and groups around, with various "authorities". This is not really a problem for Lord Buddha, but it´s irritating for the rest of us.

How can they honestly call themselves Buddhists? :crazy:

Punya
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Punya » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:52 pm

I'm not going to research if this is another cult.
Understandable. As Andrew108 has said in another thread:
There are lots of these types of 'teachers' around. Some in Asia and some in the West. What you get from them isn't genuine dharma. What they get from you is money and bought respect from Tibetans....This is happening more and more.
I guess I was trying to alert to newcomers to Buddhism but they are probably the ones who are least likely to come across this information. I know when I first visited a buddhist centre I knew nothing about the checks that traditional texts advise when selecting a teacher and I certainly wouldn't have had the knowledge to make that assessment. Luckily I picked a group that proved to be reputable.

Now when I hear about a new teacher in my part of the world the first thing I do is some internet searches. Who are they and what other reputable groups are they connected to? It's not a fail safe system as shown by this group's apparent connection to Quang Minh temple (which may or may not be true) and when other information is pretty difficult to verify, but it at least gives you a starting point. A healthy skepticism doesn't hurt either.

A while back I tried to warn an acquaintance about another suspect group. She was very vulnerable having just broken up with her husband. In this case I had some direct negative information from a dharma friend and comments from a very well known buddhist authority to share. She ignored me. She said something along the lines of 'the monk at the centre is so sweet and the atmosphere so serene'. I didn't persist.

PS. The irony of my signature hasn't escaped me either. I still can't help pursuing some causes despite having mostly lost interest in politics and generally accepting my teacher's advice that things can't be fixed.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

DGA
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Re: Another cult?

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:55 pm

Hi Punya,

It's true that samsara is samsara is samsara. But it's also true that some facts are better than others! I would like to see some clear facts emerge on this situation, so that if others who are searching for concrete information can find it--and here, the only fact I see is that there are many, many questions swirling around, but so few verifiable answers.

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kailashjaunt
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Re: Another cult?

Post by kailashjaunt » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:06 am

Dear Jikan,
In response to your request for concrete information, this might help:
http://www.leavingtaipeicultscam.com/

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:58 am

kailashjaunt wrote:Dear Jikan,
In response to your request for concrete information, this might help:
http://www.leavingtaipeicultscam.com/
That's certainly enough to show that there are two sides to every story - thanks!

Can you help further, e.g. with answers to any of Punya's questions in http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p259456?

:namaste:
Kim

Punya
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Punya » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:00 pm

It would also be good to have a response to the following.

In Dr Peter Alan Robert's The Biographies of Rechungpa: The Evolution of a Tibetan Hagiography states at p. 68:

"Lama Shang (1123-93) was the founder of the Tsalpa Kagyu lineage tradition, which has now ceased to have an independent existence." (my emphasis added)

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Fv6 ... QQ6AEwBDgK ( you need to enter "tsalpa" in the search facility in the lower left side of the page to get to p68)

Dr Peter Alan Roberts is a translator and author who began studying Tibetan at Samye Ling in Scotland in 1976. Since then, he has translated for many lamas all over the world, and especially for his main teacher, Thrangu Rinpoche. He is also a senior Translator for "84000-Translating the Words of the Buddha".

Material promoting the current Shang Rinpoche seems to indicate that he is head of the Tsalpa Kagyu lineage eg http://about.me/shang.rinpoche and http://www.tsalpa.org/#!shang-rinpoche but this material has been edited even since I started taking an interest in this topic so they not be useful links in the not too distant future.
Last edited by Punya on Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Another cult?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:30 pm

Punya wrote:In material promoting the current Shang Rinpoche it is stated that he is head of the Tsalpa Kagyu lineage.
A "lama" with unverifiable credentials claiming to teach the practices of tradition that all official sources claim does not exist anymore. I think that is more than enough evidence to cause me to avoid them.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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