what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

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frank123
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what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by frank123 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:42 pm

I have heard various teachers of Buddhadharma use terms like deathlessness and indestructible etc to talk about our nature.What makes this not eternalism?what is between eternalism and nihilism?

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:39 pm

If thing is present, we say it exists (eternalism). If thing is not present, we say it does not exist (nihilism). That's how we think. That's how we grasp to concepts.
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Ayu
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by Ayu » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:02 pm

Nagarjuna wrote:Whatever is dependent arising
We declared that to be emptiness.
That is dependent designation,
And itself the middle way.
Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:18

This explains the middle between eternalism and nihilism. It's all neither nor.
"Deathless" is only a negation. It doesn't mean "eternal".
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:07 pm

Zen Master Bodhidharma:

Mind and form create and negate each other. That which exists exists in relation to that which doesn’t exist. And that which doesn’t exist doesn’t exist in relation to that which exists. :bow:
Make personal vows.

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lorem
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by lorem » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:10 pm

Neither one nor many.
I should be meditating.

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lorem
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by lorem » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:19 pm

Ayu wrote:
Nagarjuna wrote:Whatever is dependent arising
We declared that to be emptiness.
That is dependent designation,
And itself the middle way.
Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:18

This explains the middle between eternalism and nihilism. It's all neither nor.
"Deathless" is only a negation. It doesn't mean "eternal".
emptiness?
I should be meditating.

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:20 pm

lorem wrote:Neither one nor many.
One isn't one because of many, we know one. Many isn't many because of one, we know many. One is not many and many is not one. Many is ones, and ones are many. One is one, many is many.
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:28 pm

lorem wrote:
Ayu wrote:
Nagarjuna wrote:Whatever is dependent arising
We declared that to be emptiness.
That is dependent designation,
And itself the middle way.
Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:18

This explains the middle between eternalism and nihilism. It's all neither nor.
"Deathless" is only a negation. It doesn't mean "eternal".
emptiness?


That is empty isn't empty, that isn't empty is empty.
Make personal vows.

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lorem
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by lorem » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:29 pm

LastLegend wrote:
lorem wrote:Neither one nor many.
One isn't one because of many, we know one. Many isn't many because of one, we know many. One is not many and many is not one. Many is ones, and ones are many. One is one, many is many.
Nice. I'm am glad that's clear. :pig:
I should be meditating.

frank123
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by frank123 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:31 pm

Ayu wrote:
Nagarjuna wrote:Whatever is dependent arising
We declared that to be emptiness.
That is dependent designation,
And itself the middle way.
Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:18

This explains the middle between eternalism and nihilism. It's all neither nor.
"Deathless" is only a negation. It doesn't mean "eternal".
Is deathless an negation? Sounds like a affirmation.

frank123
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by frank123 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:35 pm

so is there something that exist in us that is beyond death?

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:36 pm

I think it points out the way we think is flawed. As soon as there is an assertion/view, we already err. So back to the basic, liberation from suffering as such liberation from view.
Last edited by LastLegend on Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:39 pm

frank123 wrote:so is there something that exist in us that is beyond death?
There is not a thing there or even trace of it, yet you are here talking to me.
Make personal vows.

odysseus
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by odysseus » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:39 pm

The "deathless" means like the Holy Nirvana. Something that´s beyond both life and death, and eternalism and nihilism.

It´s less dramatic than it sounds, but anyone are welcome to come and see...

frank123
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by frank123 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:40 pm

LastLegend wrote:I think it points out the way we think is flawed. As soon as there is an assertion/view, we already err.
Not what we think but what acually is.

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:43 pm

Can't reach it by concept. The teaching is liberation from suffering as such liberation from attachment to all views and forms.
Make personal vows.

odysseus
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by odysseus » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:01 pm

frank123 wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I think it points out the way we think is flawed. As soon as there is an assertion/view, we already err.
Not what we think but what acually is.
Do we absolutely need an assertion or "view", to disguise our errors? Except for Right View? What IS anyway, in your own consciousness? Is it your own definition of "something", or wouldn´t you feel better if there is only something that´s "there", without categorising this something?

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LastLegend
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by LastLegend » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:22 pm

You are as you are now, don't hold on to any view about yourself or about any forms at death, then you will break through all barriers. Bodhidharma said that, I can give you his quote if you want.The that which holds view is already present in front of you. Don't doubt yourself any more.

Don't hold any attachment to view is call burning the sutra. Jumping off the ocean is called abandoning raft, and you will die :lol: , only when this perishes you will see your nature. Don't go kill yourself though. I am just kidding. :lol:
Make personal vows.

frank123
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by frank123 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:28 pm

odysseus wrote:
frank123 wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I think it points out the way we think is flawed. As soon as there is an assertion/view, we already err.
Not what we think but what acually is.
Do we absolutely need an assertion or "view", to disguise our errors? Except for Right View? What IS anyway, in your own consciousness? Is it your own definition of "something", or wouldn´t you feel better if there is only something that´s "there", without categorising this something?
I stated very clearly beyond concept.

odysseus
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Re: what makes Buddhist deathlessness not eternalism?

Post by odysseus » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:33 pm

LastLegend wrote:don't hold on to any view about yourself or about any forms at death, then you will break through all barriers. Bodhidharma said that, I can give you his quote if you want.The that which holds view is already present in front of you. Don't doubt yourself any more.

Yes, it makes us into Supermen. lol
LastLegend wrote: Don't hold any attachment to view is call burning the sutra. Jumping off the ocean is called abandoning raft, and you will die :lol: , only when this perishes you will see your nature. Don't go kill yourself though. I am just kidding. :lol:
We´ll leave our views and assertions and sutras when we come closer to ourselves. But no need to play hard on ourselves. When the occasion turns into fruition, you know exactly how to handle the river and to cross over safely.

:thinking:

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