Either/Or <---> And

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Jesse
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by Jesse » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:09 pm

Conceptual thought super-imposes a view onto reality. When we realize that we can stop chasing the phantoms our thoughts create and our afflictions are diminished or stopped altogether.

In-so-far as I can tell that's what your getting at.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

Rainboyo
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by Rainboyo » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:13 am

Kim, I have resonated with different things I have read about Zen, but I have found it a difficult thing to research, because the different traditions and schools are described in so many different ways by so many different people. Is there something in particular that you would recommend I look at?

Azramin, perhaps it could be said that belief/faith are both incredibly useful tools, but it's only where we cling on to some belief that isn't useful/sensitive to our current situation that we suffer?

Herbie, I'm so sorry, but I'm not sure if I understand the general thrust of what you're saying, but to answer your question "Is there a freedom of choice and if yes to what degree", I would suggest that believing in a concept is always a free choice, even though there may be some choices that we make so often they have become habitual. Does that make sense?
Jesse wrote:Conceptual thought super-imposes a view onto reality. When we realize that we can stop chasing the phantoms our thoughts create and our afflictions are diminished or stopped altogether.

In-so-far as I can tell that's what your getting at.
Jesse, that sounds pretty much like what I'm getting at, but I might be tempted to clarify that in this context, 'reality' is defined in opposition to 'concept'. If we don't make such a distinction, the words 'concept' and 'reality' have no meaning... so conceptual thought superimposes a view onto 'reality', thereby creating that very reality. Whatever it is that lies beyond conceptual thought can't really be meaningfully defined, because if we've said we can't use concepts, we can't compare it to anything else... we can only experience it directly, but to make sense of that experience we have to analyse it!

Hmmmm I feel like I have a pretty clear sense of what I mean, but talking about it just seems to come out looking like gobbledygook! Did any of that make sense at all?

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viniketa
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by viniketa » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:23 am

The four-valued logic is called in Sanskrit a Catuṣkoṭi. Compare it to the Greek tetralemma and the Aristotelian Square of Oppositions.

Namaste.
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment

Jesse
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by Jesse » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:33 am

so conceptual thought superimposes a view onto 'reality', thereby creating that very reality.
That's basically it.
Kim, I have resonated with different things I have read about Zen, but I have found it a difficult thing to research, because the different traditions and schools are described in so many different ways by so many different people. Is there something in particular that you would recommend I look at?
Zazen practice. :P
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

Herbie
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by Herbie » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:57 am

Rainboyo wrote: Herbie, I'm so sorry, but I'm not sure if I understand the general thrust of what you're saying, but to answer your question "Is there a freedom of choice and if yes to what degree", I would suggest that believing in a concept is always a free choice, even though there may be some choices that we make so often they have become habitual. Does that make sense?
Hi Rainboyo

no need to be sorry. There is no "general thrust" and the question is a question for the purpose of inspiration.
Well at least you have to have the idea "concept" to project this very idea on your own use of terms and thinking in terms. Because to think "What I think is a concept." entails the necessary inner distance to what you think and only this distance may (not necessary will) enable you to analyse "Is what and how I think and how I relate to my own thinking on the level of emotions and mood appropriate?"
And you are right, habit, i.e. being conditioned to think in certain ways or believing in certain concepts always counters the choice even if you have gained the necessary inner distance. And the way one is conditioned to think or the concepts one is conditioned to believe in do depend upon the culture you are born into and within this culture on the group of people you are associating with and on the beliefs that are cultivated within this group.

Regards

White Lotus
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Re: Either/Or <---> And

Post by White Lotus » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:31 pm

either:or:and:neither.

if you take a golden spiral that is similar to the four propositions and 100 negations.

1. it exists
2. it doesnt exist
3. it both exists and doesnt exist
4. it neither exists nor doesnt exist.
100 negations of lankavatara sutra... none of the above will do.

on the spiral one can at any point north, east, south or west be on any position in the spiral, therefore one can attach to any one of the above positions... however in buddhism one goes beyond all assertions or negations to a positionless position, or no position or emptiness. within this No position one is free to take any postion. this is since emptiness is form.

free your mind. inspite having philosophical freedom in debate, there are practcal considerations to be taken in life... if i boil the kettle it will for a while be hot, or if i put a bottle of water in the fridge long enough it will cool down the water.

hope this is helpful.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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