What is the difference between the two truths?

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tomschwarz
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What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:08 pm

:namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?

You now how people say "its relative"? Like if you are hungry today, food will taste great tomorrow? That is a relative truth. But the dynamic behind that truth is interdependence, a.k.a. The ultimate truth.... A synonym for "its relative" is "it depends" :woohoo:
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Dan74
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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:32 pm

The relative truth is teaching from the mundane perspective, while the ultimate truth is teaching from the enlightened perspective. While the mundane and the enlightened are ultimately not two, this in itself is an ultimate truth.

They are similar to stages or approaches. For most of us, we have to do a lot of work on the level of the mundane first - cultivate sila and the Paramitas, work on establishing Bodhicitta and on meditation practice.

_/|\_

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by DGA » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:36 pm

tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?

You now how people say "its relative"? Like if you are hungry today, food will taste great tomorrow? That is a relative truth. But the dynamic behind that truth is interdependence, a.k.a. The ultimate truth.... A synonym for "its relative" is "it depends" :woohoo:
Another way to thread the same needle: take a look at the doctrine of the "three truths" in TienTai practice. The third truth concerns the realization of the nonduality of the provisional and ultimate.

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Rick
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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Rick » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:38 pm

One of the commentators on Nagarjuna's Middle Way summed it up with:

The ultimate truth ... is that there is no ultimate truth.

For my money, the non-difference of conventional and ultimate truth is huge. Grok it (there's that word again!) and you're pretty much home free. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Bakmoon » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:27 pm

The most basic way to understand the difference is that conventional truth refers to talking about things in terms in accordance with the language and understanding of ordinary beings in a way that is consistent with the way something functions, whereas ultimate truth is about the fundamental nature of how something is.

For example, we can talk about a time of day called sunrise even though the earth moves around the sun because that's how the sun functions in the sky. That's not how the sun really is, but it works for many practical purposes.

As a simple illustration let's use the example of a pot (because EVERY discussion of the two truths and Madhyamaka uses a pot for some reason.) If I look at the conventional truth of a pot, I ask myself about its color, size, what it's made out of, and how much water it can hold. All of these describe its properties and how it is able to function.

If I want to know the ultimate truth related to the pot, I ask what is the pot and what is its true nature. I can reflect on the causes and conditions that made the pot such as the clay, the potter, the oven heat, the glaze, etc... and I can see that there is no pot to be found in any of them. I can reflect on the individual parts and pieces that compose the pot and examine them, but the pot isn't there either. When I look for the pot closely like this, I fail to find the pot, so I conclude that the pot's nature is that it is empty, meaning that under analysis you come up empty handed.

That is the difference between the two truths.

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:39 pm

Ultimate truth is correct seeing of conventional truth.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 am

I like Garchen Rinpoche's gloss on it.

The relative truth is a skillful means to counteract the tendency towards nihillism. And so it allows correct seeing of dependent origination, the workings of karma, and so on. The utlimate truth is a skillful means to coutneract the tendency towards eteralism. And so it allows correct seeing of the fact that nothing as a true nature.

So they're not things like an apple and a pear on the table. In dialectical jargon they're conceptual isolates (ltog.pa). They're things that we can fillet apart using our conceptual mind, but in truth they are not two separate things.

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Rick » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:46 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Ultimate truth is correct seeing of conventional truth.
And there's the serpent swallowing its tail.
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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Paul » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:46 am

tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?
No. Relative truth is how things appear before any analysis about their nature. Ultimate truth is what is left after analysis, ie after examining using Nagarjuna's reasoning. They are connected, but they are certainly different. Confusing the two does not end well.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Rick » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:16 am

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Clearly that points to indivisible unity. But does it imply non-difference?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:04 am

tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?
Ultimately, yes. Conventionally, no. :jumping:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by antiquebuddhas » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:55 am

tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?

You now how people say "its relative"? Like if you are hungry today, food will taste great tomorrow? That is a relative truth. But the dynamic behind that truth is interdependence, a.k.a. The ultimate truth.... A synonym for "its relative" is "it depends" :woohoo:
There quite number of misunderstanding about this two truths.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabu ... Truths.htm
You can find articles very interesting.

:anjali: :anjali:
"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." Lord Buddha

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by greg911 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:49 am

antiquebuddhas wrote:
tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No?

You now how people say "its relative"? Like if you are hungry today, food will taste great tomorrow? That is a relative truth. But the dynamic behind that truth is interdependence, a.k.a. The ultimate truth.... A synonym for "its relative" is "it depends" :woohoo:
There quite number of misunderstanding about this two truths.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabu ... Truths.htm
You can find articles very interesting.

:anjali: :anjali:
Considering that I have the middle way. What do you think the fruit is?

metta

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by Adder » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:46 am

If they are meant to be a dichotomy they cannot be the same thing, unless they are realizations of the changing point of view through temporal space. For me that is where the contemplations and forgings of awareness through opening gates to spatial manifestation of the clear light works to create meaning to the two truths.

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by LastLegend » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:37 am

There is no such thing as two truths. If truths are thoughts, they are like a magic show, phantom flower in the sky.
Make personal vows.

muni
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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by muni » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:53 am

What is the difference between the two truths?
This looks like a pointing itself.

:namaste:
The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by greg911 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:58 am

Adder wrote:If they are meant to be a dichotomy they cannot be the same thing, unless they are realizations of the changing point of view through temporal space. For me that is where the contemplations and forgings of awareness through opening gates to spatial manifestation of the clear light works to create meaning to the two truths.
Unless they are the changing point in the Ultimate Truth.

metta

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by White Lotus » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:55 pm

monkey business.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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tomschwarz
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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:06 pm

yes white lotus from beginningless time! just like monkey business!

relative truth: jump from branch to branch...
absolute truth: you can only get from one branch to the other because they are connected! in an infinite number of ways!

the whole idea of relativity (including and by no means limited to dear einstein's theory of the same name), the core of the relative truth, is based on interdependence. interdependence when considered as absolute/pervasive, is the absolute truth, absolute love, emptiness (no increase, no decrease, no origination, no cessation, no defilement, no un-defilement, absence of defining characteristics, and all things are empty).

of course, each of your perspectives, my dear friends from beginningless time, is correct. thank you. :bow:
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: What is the difference between the two truths?

Post by theanarchist » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:38 pm

tomschwarz wrote::namaste: There is none!!!!! :twothumbsup:

Agree? No? :

They are two different ways of seeing the same world. One is in accordance with the truth, the other is not.

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