Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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srivijaya
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by srivijaya »

muni wrote:What about Dharmata? Is changeless, not?
No idea. I wouldn't know what Dharmata was if it hit me in the face.
Saoshun
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Saoshun »

There is logical fact for the same reality, we have the same consciousness with different setting of manifestation and karmic vision, seeing is always the ame, feeling of touch is always the same, hearing is the same, when you get angry you do not get angry different then other people, you can manifest it differently but experience is always the same as the root experience. Buddha teach ultimate, for example in Hui Neng you have quote that "those who do not understand call it spirit (atman) those who understand/realize it call it buddhahood." It's so clear cut that this one quote finish all the discussion really.
dreambow
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by dreambow »

wayfarer, " I was a bit apprehensive about the kind of asceticism that seemed to be associated with Ramana. And also as the years passed, I came to understand that the teachings of Master Dogen are actually very profound and based on deep philosophical principles, even though they seem very simple"
I agree the great teachers are always simple. Some of us want complicated rituals, secret teachings and to be in the inner circle...the ego at play!
Master Dogen is a treasure, his teaching simple and unadorned.
Ramana Maharshi did not set out to be an ascetic. The depth of his realization led to his seeing that all is one. Consequently any food that came his way in the days he lived in caves or later in the ashram was shared by all, including the animals...no scrapes or left overs for the animals, all the food was shared equally, all should get their fair share. No money was allowed to be collected in his name. The divine would provide. Who has that depth of faith? Only one who is fully awake.
muni
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by muni »

srivijaya wrote:
muni wrote:What about Dharmata? Is changeless, not?
No idea. I wouldn't know what Dharmata was if it hit me in the face.
No idea.
By the way thank you so much for that rabbit hole. Great to throw all ideation in the bottomless rabbit hole of mind.

:namaste:
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Wayfarer
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Wayfarer »

Thankyou Dreambow.

:namaste:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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monktastic
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by monktastic »

I was raised with Vedanta. I think the thing that caused me to start turning away from Hinduism was seeing so many people praying for worldly gains. Little did I know that this happens even in Buddhism, but I digress....

For a long time I had a hard time with Buddhism, because it didn't seem to incorporate the experience of "divinity" on the path. For example, as a child whenever I would visit an awe-inspiring place in nature, I would feel a deep sense of "the divine." While "the divine" may not be ultimately real or true, it seems a great shame to not have any way to incorporate that beautiful and heart-opening sensation into one's spiritual path (if one feels it or is inclined toward it, anyway).

I know many on this board will claim that devotion to "the divine" is a wrong view, and that if one is devoted to anything, it had better be named "the Buddha". But sometimes when one is fully in the throes of primordial devotion and everything else falls away, none of those names matter.

If I hadn't "happened upon" a guru who showed me how to incorporate that kind of experience, I'm not sure Buddhism would have "worked out" for me. I just couldn't take seriously any path that denied this profound inclination.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by dzogchungpa »

monktastic wrote:I was raised with Vedanta. I think the thing that caused me to start turning away from Hinduism was seeing so many people praying for worldly gains. Little did I know that this happens even in Buddhism, but I digress....

For a long time I had a hard time with Buddhism, because it didn't seem to incorporate the experience of "divinity" on the path. For example, as a child whenever I would visit an awe-inspiring place in nature, I would feel a deep sense of "the divine." While "the divine" may not be ultimately real or true, it seems a great shame to not have any way to incorporate that beautiful and heart-opening sensation into one's spiritual path (if one feels it or is inclined toward it, anyway).

I know many on this board will claim that devotion to "the divine" is a wrong view, and that if one is devoted to anything, it had better be named "the Buddha". But sometimes when one is fully in the throes of primordial devotion and everything else falls away, none of those names matter.

If I hadn't "happened upon" a guru who showed me how to incorporate that kind of experience, I'm not sure Buddhism would have "worked out" for me. I just couldn't take seriously any path that denied this profound inclination.
You might find the section "Divinity in the Three Yanas" of CTR's "The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness" interesting.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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monktastic
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by monktastic »

What, the same guy who said that Krishna was in his heart and that Ramana Maharshi was realized? :tongue:

Thanks, I'll check it out.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
Phenomniverse
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Phenomniverse »

monktastic wrote: as a child whenever I would visit an awe-inspiring place in nature, I would feel a deep sense of "the divine."

If I hadn't "happened upon" a guru who showed me how to incorporate that kind of experience, I'm not sure Buddhism would have "worked out" for me. I just couldn't take seriously any path that denied this profound inclination.

I am also prone to that kind of sense of the sacred in natural and other places, and I also find that other traditions affirm that more than Buddhism does. Can you elaborate on what your guru taught you about incorporating this type of experience?
dreambow
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by dreambow »

monktastic, If you mean Harilal Poonjaji? Indeed he was a Krishna devotee but Ramana Maharshi had a profound effect on him and he was ever thankful for Ramana's influence. Although at a much later stage when Poonjaji died....the last words he uttered were "Where is Buddha?"
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Astus
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Astus »

lostitude wrote:
Astus wrote: Also, since nobody ever experiences a permanent self, it is just a conceptual fantasy.
How do you know that? Maybe some people have?
If they had experienced a permanent self, then they must have had that all the time. Permanence does not allow an experience to arise or disappear, thus no path or teaching to reach it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Astus
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Astus »

catmoon wrote:What made the difference to me was exposure to the Baghavad-Gita. I just couldn't make any sense of it at all. Then I heard a little of one of the Dalai Lama's talks, and his clarity, humour and depth caught my attention immediately.
Interesting, I liked the Gita very much and turned to Buddhism partly because koans were hard to make sense of.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
lostitude
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by lostitude »

Astus wrote:
lostitude wrote:
Astus wrote: Also, since nobody ever experiences a permanent self, it is just a conceptual fantasy.
How do you know that? Maybe some people have?
If they had experienced a permanent self, then they must have had that all the time. Permanence does not allow an experience to arise or disappear, thus no path or teaching to reach it.
I don't see why? You can experience something permanent but not always be in the right frame of mind to experience it. It is like perceiving background noise, you actually hear it only if you pay sufficient attention to it.
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Astus
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Astus »

lostitude wrote:I don't see why? You can experience something permanent but not always be in the right frame of mind to experience it. It is like perceiving background noise, you actually hear it only if you pay sufficient attention to it.
Permanence excludes causality. Being recognised is a change in conditions. Also, if it is one's permanent self, the self is the one that should recognise itself, and since it is permanent, it either always knows itself or never.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Redfaery
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Redfaery »

I read a description of shunyata and felt great joy. That is why "I" chose Buddhism.
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
lostitude
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by lostitude »

Astus wrote:
lostitude wrote:I don't see why? You can experience something permanent but not always be in the right frame of mind to experience it. It is like perceiving background noise, you actually hear it only if you pay sufficient attention to it.
Permanence excludes causality. Being recognised is a change in conditions. Also, if it is one's permanent self, the self is the one that should recognise itself, and since it is permanent, it either always knows itself or never.
I guess this philosophy really isn't for me then... to me, whether you open or close your window to let the sunlight come in, won't change anything about the sun itself... but ok, doesn't matter, each to his own :smile:
Malcolm
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Malcolm »

lostitude wrote:
Astus wrote:
lostitude wrote:I don't see why? You can experience something permanent but not always be in the right frame of mind to experience it. It is like perceiving background noise, you actually hear it only if you pay sufficient attention to it.
Permanence excludes causality. Being recognised is a change in conditions. Also, if it is one's permanent self, the self is the one that should recognise itself, and since it is permanent, it either always knows itself or never.
I guess this philosophy really isn't for me then... to me, whether you open or close your window to let the sunlight come in, won't change anything about the sun itself... but ok, doesn't matter, each to his own :smile:
The sun is also not permanent.
lostitude
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by lostitude »

Malcolm wrote:
lostitude wrote:
Astus wrote:
Permanence excludes causality. Being recognised is a change in conditions. Also, if it is one's permanent self, the self is the one that should recognise itself, and since it is permanent, it either always knows itself or never.
I guess this philosophy really isn't for me then... to me, whether you open or close your window to let the sunlight come in, won't change anything about the sun itself... but ok, doesn't matter, each to his own :smile:
The sun is also not permanent.
It was just an example of something that doesn't change just because you look at it or you don't.
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by catmoon »

I see it as an example of something that never stops changing whether I'm looking at it or not.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
Malcolm
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Re: Why Buddhism over Vedanta?

Post by Malcolm »

lostitude wrote:
It was just an example of something that doesn't change just because you look at it or you don't.
The only that never changes is the space element. And it does not exist as such.
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