What convinces Tibetans of rebirth, karma etc.?

[rainbow_light]

I feel that I'm hindered by doubt regarding the Buddhist doctrines of rebirth, karma (especially the karmic law of "increase in results" as described here), and the existence of other-worldly realms, as well as the idea that we have all lived such an unfathomable number of past lives that everyone can be considered to have once been our mother. I have tried contemplating on these but I feel I cannot achieve confidence through contemplation alone. It seems that many Tibetan Buddhists possess a high degree of confidence in these doctrines. And many Tibetan Buddhist practices and rituals (such as the practice to bring about rebirth in Buddha Amitabha's pure land) seem to require, or take as a given, a high degree of confidence in the practitioner -- much more so than Theravadan practices. I would like to know more about what the basis is for this.

My experience has been that, as I've read more about Tibetan Buddhism, I've grown more confident in these doctrines as a result of encountering descriptions of Buddhist masters (e.g. the death of the sixteenth Karmapa), accounts of visionary experiences, and so on. However, I still haven't resolved for myself the question of whether visions can contain any truth or ideas to them that weren't already buried in ungerminated form within the mind of the visionary. I've come across accounts from Out-Of-Body Experience adepts such as Robert Monroe and Frederick Aardema that seem to suggest that it is possible to access previously unknown facts about the world. But crucially, their anxious, egoic thoughts and concerns seem to distort their ability to access this external information, similar to how one's creativity tends to be obstructed until one "loses oneself" in the act of creation. So I'm open to the idea that awakened beings may have much more reliable access to actual discovery of knowledge through visions. Ultimately I just feel the weight of "evidence" I've accumulated so far isn't yet sufficient for me to be able to confidently make decisions in accordance with the aforementioned Buddhist doctrines. I would greatly appreciate assistance in encountering more of this "evidence", and more easily.

N.B.

• Anything that can't be written off as merely vivid imaginings, and that seems to suggest access to external information previously unknown to the visionary is especially appreciated.
• I don't mean to limit responses to just descriptions of visions: I'd appreciate anything that you found even remotely persuasive, or even just ideas for where I'm likely to find such material.
• By "persuasive", I don't necessarily mean "convincing", but just "increasing one's belief in X or making one more open to the possibility of X being true".
• I'm not looking for scientific evidence of these doctrines.
• If you're going to question the usefulness of this endeavor, or post anything that could be interpreted as "defeatist", please at least try to provide a convincing, fleshed-out argument.
• Also, don't assume that I'm prepared to take your word on anything remotely questionable: please try to provide sources.

[Paul]

The modern west, at least its self-appointed intellectual elites, are the just about the only society to NOT believe in some kind of other-world, afterlife and/or spiritual facet to life. So it's not just Tibetans, it's everyone else. Of course their view points differ - often drastically - on the details, but I think that for our species it is actually the natural thing to have such beliefs. I think atheistic materialism, even if it is true, does not at all suit the way the human mind works.

Personally, I don't think you can ever find completely convincing evidence - especially if you prioritise the rational, scientific and objective. It seems that anything you can experience can be put down to coincidence, stories, odd effects in the brain etc. But it does become remarkable consistent if you persist in practising dharma. As a lama once told me 'it's just a coincidence - it happens every time.' I used to be very materialistic, but now I am very much more an animist than anything else.

I really recommend Patrick Harpur's books The Philosopher's Secret Fire and Daimonic Reality. What they talk about seems to be how a healthy human should see the world. And I think for 99% of the history of the human race that was exactly how it was.

[Boomerang]

Consciousness isn't physical; it can't be seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled. Your body, on the other hand, is physical. Something physical can't create something non-physical. How would that even work? Therefore, there's no reason to assume that the body creates consciousness. And if consciousness isn't created by the body, then there's no reason to assume consciousness disappears when the body dies.

Something that exists can't magically disappear, and something that doesn't exist can't magically come into existence. If your consciousness exists now, it must have existed in the past, and will continue to exist in the future.

[BrianG]

I feel that I'm hindered by doubt regarding the Buddhist doctrines of rebirth, karma (especially the karmic law of "increase in results" as described here), and the existence of other-worldly realms, as well as the idea that we have all lived such an unfathomable number of past lives that everyone can be considered to have once been our mother.

You should use logic. How would the universe function without rebirth? What would you plug into equations for t, without an observer? Would time be frozen? How could time exist, without an observer?

From the Buddhist point of view, everything in the universe is relative, including time. It's mandatory for there to be mindstreams, for anything to exist at all.

What you are experiencing right now, is a dream that has been going on for countless eons. But, even if someone tells you that you are dreaming, you will not believe them. Then you die, the current dream is over, and you begin a new dream as another sentient being. The previous life becomes a forgotten dream, and you still do not realize that you are dreaming in the next dream.

In terms of visions, I don't see how visions would be somehow more credible than logic. For instance, if I've seen visions from previous lives, hell beings, devas, realms, etc... how does that prove anything?

[smcj]

I feel that I'm hindered by doubt regarding the Buddhist doctrines of rebirth, karma (especially the karmic law of "increase in results" as described...

It's short, so might as well do a cut & paste from that link:

The second law of karma is the increase of results: from a small action very large results can follow. We say something nasty to our partner and the longer we leave it without trying to resolve the problem, the more the resentment grows. We all know this from our individual experience.

In other words things can snowball. I don't know about you, but that's certainly has been evident in my life!

[passel]

Geshe Wangyal was fond of likening the Dharma to an overflowing shelf. It's full of far too much stuff for any one person to take and use, but everything on it is there because someone thought it was important. You take what you need from the shelf, what you think you can use. The rest you can just keep on the shelf. You don't need to put it in the garbage, you just put it back on the shelf. You might find a use for it later, or you might not. It's really no big deal.

[smcj]

Tibetans are told that the Dharma is true from birth. Until the diaspora they had not seen the need to question it. Why would they? Now a few do.

[Boomerang]

Another thing to consider is that emptiness and dependent origination cannot be real unless rebirth is also real. If you doubt rebirth you are implicitly professing belief in annihilation. So, just contemplating emptiness may help you understand rebirth.

[Monlam Tharchin]

For me, it was the book "Return to Life: Extraordinary Cases of Children Who Remember Past Lives" by Tucker.

much more so than Theravadan practices

I stopped practicing Theravada because I couldn't see anything remotely like jhana in my meditation experience, nor rouse the energy to pursue a practice that requires "incalculable eons" of rebirth to culminate.
Try thinking yourself logically into the 12 links of interdependent origination also. There, consciousness precedes form/matter, so you're not out of the woods there either.
There is quite a bit to proceed with faith on in Theravadan Buddhism.
if the hindrance of doubt is your biggest struggle, it will follow you there. Or even into Christianity like it did me at one point.

Maybe learning about doubt in the context of a hindrance would be more helpful.
I've found my doubt is like Goldilocks and wants every explanation to be "just right" to my sensibilities at the time... which change in a few weeks anyway!

[muni]

Rainbow_Light,

Like Boomerang said, H H Dalai Lama explained as well consciousness is not created by the body. Consciousness derives from more subtle vast consciousness, which is not personal, has no identity. In NDE we experience that as well, the body remains there and is not seen as ours anymore, there is no longing to it and still all is very sharp seen, even without glasses ( since where to put them). It can become clear without further doubt that what we call lives play in vast consciousness till we realize that limited personal consciousness locked in thoughts is not wat we are. But this means not we are free, since we can fall back in the thought-world and its real existing identities. In any case there is no doubt regarding Buddhism and rebirth anymore and there is the deep wish to awaken completely.

If we are able to remain aware of own mind or if we can reflect about our day at the evening, we can see in which moments we were having a feeling of contentment and when there was growing sorrow for example. Then we can reflect further how was our state of mind a bit before to maybe lead to such. By that we sometimes can see how our behaviour/state of mind leads to pleasant or unpleasant experiences.
But effects of karma can as well remain long time hidden so to speak before they bear fruit on the right moment when causes and conditions come together. Like a seed of a plant hidden in a ground which is covered by branches of huge trees. No rain or light can reach it to grow before some branches of the tree are cut.

[SeeLion]

You should use logic. How would the universe function without rebirth? What would you plug into equations for t, without an observer? Would time be frozen? How could time exist, without an observer?

Not quite following the logic ...


1. Time doesn't exist, only change does.

2. There is no observer, that would be a "self".

3. Why is re-birth needed again ? Isn't birth enough ?

And this is the subject of this topic ... that birth may not imply rebirth.

Another thing to consider is that emptiness and dependent origination cannot be real unless rebirth is also real.

Hmm, what about emptiness ?

As for dependent origination, things arise until they cease, that can happen (with some modifications) during a single life, no need for multiple lives.

[muni]

Time doesn't exist, only change does.

And how that change can change/play without the changeless nature is another contemplation.
How can our changing conceptual mind, a waterfall, appearing/disappearing flowers be without changeless?
The sky is always there, whatever which season, whatever which weather. How can a changing cloud be without the changeless sky? It should be an unmoving rock. All should be as unmoving rocks and no change should be possible. One thing is good on this, the rocks cannot fall down neither.

Another metaphor: In a mirror many things come and go but the mirror is not coming and going with them. Maybe we can say the skylike mirror allows all to come and go but doesn't change itself. The inseparable dependence - emptiness/cloud-sky.

Why is re-birth needed again ? Isn't birth enough ?

Based on birth of entities it remains difficult to see how rebirth can be.

In conventional terms, we can talk about an ‟individual” consciousness, even if the individual doesn't exist as an isolated entity. The fact that there's no such discontinuous entity being transferred from one life to the next doesn't mean that there can't be a continuity of functioning and a particular history. http://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/p ... a-self-end

Another example of continuity in life: While we sleep or just do not think about our heart continues to beat, the liver is functioning, the bloodcirculation follows its flow, the breath..., all these continue without there is a doer or individual doer present, whether the individual realizes to be born as such one with such name or not.

[Wayfarer]

It is the worldview of a lot of the traditional East and is very different from the worldview of the secular west. I wouldn't spend too much time wondering if it is true - the important aspect of dharma are the three legs of the tripod, sila, prajna samadhi. You can put to one side many questions about past and future lives. It doesn't mean rejecting them, or embracing them - just 'bracket' such questions. Another problem might be that there is a lot of subtle pressure NOT to accept certain ideas, also, as they are subversive of the social consensus. Same advice, though - put them aside and just concentrate on the 'three antidotes'.

[muni]

there is a lot of subtle pressure NOT to accept certain ideas

Pressure is not freeing from suffering and harm, rather a subtle form of harm and suffering. Nature has no ideas and nothing to prove or defend, has no dividing views. Therefore for me practice is crucial. We can share what is helpful for us to release pain. The intention is then as well from the heart to release suffering by others. Very good possible it is not so helpful for the other and other medicine can be useful, or it is not at a help this moment. Buddha said not to accept and neither reject whatever is been said, but see if it helps us release our pain, otherwise let go.

Or simple let go our ideas, then pressure goes as well. Very efficient!

Western and eastern. I am not good to go in a particular direction, lacking navigation system. When they tell me go to East-North direction, then you shouldn't expect me to arrive.