Tummo

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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HandsomeMonkeyking
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Tummo

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:33 am

Basically the only thing I practice is Shamatha.
It has not been my goal to achieve "extraordinary skill" like levitation or anything, nevertheless without searching for it I recently got sent links or stumbled upon them without actively looking about Tummo.

I am confused about the subject and hope to find some information here.

Basically what I knew before was that it is taught in the third year of some three year retreats and is regarded as something that should only be learned when one has achieved certain things. To my understanding it should help create energy in the channels and burn negative karma away (?) and thus helping with gaining enlightenment.
I heard rumors that one only should practise it after achieving a certain state becaues it can be dangerous, sounding like one could "burn"/overcharge his nervous system or similar.

However I saw a video of Garchen Rinpche where he sais conditions have changed and he gives Tummo instructions now to "normal" people too, motivated by compassion, to help them go further and become happy.
Here is an extraction of this video:
phpBB [video]


On another site link to ridiculous claims removed a person claims that it is good for "normal" people and only hold back because of traditionalists.
And the person goes on with giving instructions.

And then I remembered "The Ice Man", a person called Wim Hof, who does some things to create heat and control his immune system. It sounds a lot like yogic practises. I don't know if he learned some of those and adapted them. Or whether he just read them in books and tried them out and worked or got proper instruction. Or whether he came up with them on his own, maybe still with getting inspiration from existing practises.
He also seems to have been able to teach this skill to a lot of other people, and I couldn't find information about people who got damaged/negative effects from it.
Which of course still is not proof that it is fine. But still interesting.

From dutch TV:

Wim Hof videos removed

If somebody knows more about him or how he got those practises I would be interested to hear it.

I wonder what you think about this. Is it possible that Tummo is a very beneficial practise for many people but gets hold back by traditionalists?

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Paul
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Re: Tummo

Post by Paul » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:40 am

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:I wonder what you think about this. Is it possible that Tummo is a very beneficial practise for many people but gets hold back by traditionalists?
I think some things are effectively 'held back' for poor reasons, but tummo is not one of these. Pranayama, tummo, kundalini etc can have serious negative impacts on the body and mind, ie kundalini syndrome.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

Simon E.
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Re: Tummo

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:12 am

Paul wrote:
HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:I wonder what you think about this. Is it possible that Tummo is a very beneficial practise for many people but gets hold back by traditionalists?
I think some things are effectively 'held back' for poor reasons, but tummo is not one of these. Pranayama, tummo, kundalini etc can have serious negative impacts on the body and mind, ie kundalini syndrome.

This.

Unless you are are practising with a lineage that deploys tummo, and you are receiving instruction from a qualified Buddhist teacher, leave it alone.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

HandsomeMonkeyking
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Re: Tummo

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:53 pm

Well. Still I don't know for sure what exactly the tummo is for or why one should practise it.
I would like to know that. I only dimly remember that someone said that tummo is a faster way to englightenment than X..hmm was it Milarepa to Gampopa?

Wim Hof claims to teach his method for making people feel better and becoming more resistant against illnesses.
Also if this is what Tummo looks like: link to video removed
the Wim Hof method seems like a different approach.

They also seem to do the hyperventilationstyle breathing but I think there is a progression of taking cold showers to going ice bathing.

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Paul
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Re: Tummo

Post by Paul » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:03 pm

You might like this:
phpBB [video]
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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conebeckham
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Re: Tummo

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:05 pm

It's best not to talk too much about it, Mr. King- and all those videos don't really express what Tummo is, and what it does. It's no parlor trick to melt snow, for instance, and in more "orthodox" traditions (such as mine) videos like these are frowned on. Garchen Rinpoche and the Drikung video is worth watching, but again--trying to understand, or worse yet, learn, such practices from videos is foolhardy and potentially dangerous.

Succinctly put, Tummo is a practice which serves to produce a certain mental state, and that mental state is felt to be very "workable," i.e., it is a good state of mind for meditation. In general, all of the Six Yogas serve to create circumstances whereby meditation on "Nature of Mind" is successful. Everything else is a sideline, and a potential pitfall.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Tummo

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:21 pm

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:... traditionalists ...
You probably got the opinions you already knew. It is part of the body isolation stage of completion phase. Apart from issues of "danger", the complete higher yoga tantra practice seems very complex to me. I suspect to include the numerous components of that practice would take a long time and huge effort. This itself perhaps makes it unlikely anyone would stick with it without getting serious help.
HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:... Wim Hof ...
I've seen his videos but never watched them. So I can't say if it's a parlor trick or not. A lot of students can't live with a guru over a long period of time. So perhaps technology will eventually be integrated into practice to give results that can be measured. Galvanic skin response, heart rate variability, neurofeedback, that kind of thing. However I'm not sure that can apply to this practice. It describes its own results.

EDIT: Also perhaps worthwhile:

In general, when we want to learn something about tantra, it’s very important to examine why. Why do we want to know more about this? Why do we want to practice it? And as we went through in setting our motivation for this lecture, the main reason needs to be compassion, our deep concern for others, and our very, very strong bodhichitta wish to achieve not only better rebirths but, beyond that, liberation from uncontrollably recurring rebirth and, beyond that, the enlightened state of a Buddha to be able to help others as much as possible to also gain liberation and enlightenment.

And our compassion, our concern for others, is so strong that we want to do that in the most efficient way. That means we are not motivated by impatience in the sense that we’re lazy and we want something that’s fast and easy; but no matter how difficult the more efficient way is, we want to do that so that we can reach enlightenment as quickly as possible to be of best help to everyone, with the full enthusiasm, the armor-like perseverance it’s called, to endure the tremendous difficulties of practicing this highest-yoga practice. So we are not minimizing it, and we don’t have some false idea that this is going to be an easy path, but we’re willing to do it in order to help others. That’s very important.


Berzin.

HandsomeMonkeyking
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Re: Tummo

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:55 am

@Paul: Thanks :) I have already watched this some years ago.
You probably got the opinions you already knew.
Sorry?
I've seen his videos but never watched them. So I can't say if it's a parlor trick or not.
Well, to have a worthy discussion, watching and informing about it would be a good start, I think.
It's not a trick like he has proven, the question is: is it related to Tummo or not?

He uses it with MS patients and others and has taken part in an experiment where he fights dead bacteria which good injected in his blood stream. He propagades his method to create a "world free of illness".
..kundalini effect..
I was practiciing in a certain Qigong lineage for 5 years. About a certain kindof practise they said one should never do it. It's only for highliy advanced practicioners and will lead to kundalini effect in others.
I believed them and never touched that practise. Later I moved to a different city, I visited several groups but didn't stick with any because they practised that "forbidden practise". It was like that for years, until I joined a group where I stayed, and after some months we practised the "forbidden practise" too. Hmm this time I decided to just try it. So far no negative effects, but good ones. Seems also like all the people who practise it dont have kundalini effect. So, seems like that warning that I got from my first teacher (who I had really good relationship with) was not so right, my teacher now (who I also have really good relationship with) sais I shouldn't worry about it. It is just fine to practise it.

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Ayu
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Re: Tummo

Post by Ayu » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:03 am

HandsomeMonkeyking, I think, you should not compare your experiments with Qigong to Tummo, since these are different topics.

Your question, was very well answered here:
conebeckham wrote:It's best not to talk too much about it, Mr. King- and all those videos don't really express what Tummo is, and what it does. It's no parlor trick to melt snow, for instance, and in more "orthodox" traditions (such as mine) videos like these are frowned on. Garchen Rinpoche and the Drikung video is worth watching, but again--trying to understand, or worse yet, learn, such practices from videos is foolhardy and potentially dangerous.

Succinctly put, Tummo is a practice which serves to produce a certain mental state, and that mental state is felt to be very "workable," i.e., it is a good state of mind for meditation. In general, all of the Six Yogas serve to create circumstances whereby meditation on "Nature of Mind" is successful. Everything else is a sideline, and a potential pitfall.

:thinking: Why does this topic remind me of this song? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eISEw6Wug ;)
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

HandsomeMonkeyking
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Re: Tummo

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:43 pm

HandsomeMonkeyking, I think, you should not compare your experiments with Qigong to Tummo, since these are different topics.
I was not comparing Qigong with Tummo. I was comparing someone telling me a certain practice is dangerous and later finding out plenty of people doing it with no harm but much benefit.

Yes, one of my question was answered by:
Succinctly put, Tummo is a practice which serves to produce a certain mental state, and that mental state is felt to be very "workable," i.e., it is a good state of mind for meditation. In general, all of the Six Yogas serve to create circumstances whereby meditation on "Nature of Mind" is successful. Everything else is a sideline, and a potential pitfall.
But still it was not answered in relation to Wim Hof. In theory it could be that his method does not have anything to do with Tummo, but comes from somewhere else. And if it would mean helping people with serious illnesses then it would be interesting. That's why I am trying to find out if it relates to Tummo and thus the same "security meassure" should apply.

Jinzang
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Re: Tummo

Post by Jinzang » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:00 pm

There are commitments that come with the practice of tummo and they're pretty severe. So much so that you really can't have a normal 9-5 job & family and also do tummo. Mahamudra is much easier to integrate with ordinary life and is the more profound practice anyway. Master it first and then think about tummo.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose

Caodemarte
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Re: Tummo

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:13 pm

There are well documented people who have discovered how to generate warmth and/or regulate their internal temperature under laboratory conditions (some Tummo practitioners have also done similar lab experiments). There is no evidence that what they are doing is related to Tummo, or that the mechanism used is similar, and no evidence that it isn't as far as I know. So let's not confuse the two for now.

HandsomeMonkeyking
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Re: Tummo

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:45 pm

This Wim Hof person seems to be a funny guy. Though not my kind of fun :)
Anyways I am still not sure why the Tummo shouldnt be practised.
And also I am still not sure if the two are related to each other.

So far I had the chance to speak/write to some of the people doing his method and they told me some good benefits they get from it. Noone seems to have any serious negative things (yet).

Maybe going to try this out.

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BrianG
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Re: Tummo

Post by BrianG » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:27 pm

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:This Wim Hof person seems to be a funny guy. Though not my kind of fun :)
Anyways I am still not sure why the Tummo shouldnt be practised.
And also I am still not sure if the two are related to each other.

So far I had the chance to speak/write to some of the people doing his method and they told me some good benefits they get from it. Noone seems to have any serious negative things (yet).

Maybe going to try this out.
You can experience extremely negative things, pranayama can cause death, and tummo can cause psychosis - permanently.

It should only be practised under the guidance of a guru, and it isn't really appropriate for it to be discussed publicly in this instance.
Telepaths - I like to kill them

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Grigoris
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Re: Tummo

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:23 am

The Wim Hof technique is not Tummo and one CANNOT and SHOULD NOT try to learn tummo from internet idiots.

Tummo should only be learnt from one's guru and only after passing through all the preliminaries.

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