such a great (not an) individual

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tomschwarz
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such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:17 am

dearest brethren - here is one tough enough to stump his holiness the dalai lama (?).... when we honor a buddhist human and say that he or she was so great, nagajuna, chandrakirti, rabjampa, padmasambava, etc... ....are we currupting the whole path like a tele-evangelist? what I mean, if the whole path is focused on emptiness, the absolute truth, which is signless and absent of defining characteristics, and certain humans (see afore mentioned list, and add sidhartha gautama) actually succeeded in giving up personal territory, succeeded in the great compassion which hinges on trading self for other, isn't it rather asinine to revere these people as individuals, as in "you are my hero"?

isn't the whole point that due to their victory over fundemental ignorance, they no longer actively drive (yearn after) or participate in the illusion of independent existance, the cause of all suffering?

how about, when we are done trying to credit individuals for their individual achievements, we consider honoring the great relinquishing of independent self, which can simply be buddha (rather than the 4th historical one, poised to return to us as the 5th one, etc...). even if buddha decides to fracture itself for the good of all sentient beings and be reborn through the 12 links of dependent origination, thankfulness, of course, but marking, naming, and then idolising that individual human?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by muni » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:32 am

:namaste:

A saying: be the sky and not a cloud. The sky is all-embracing not discriminating whatever appears. Whether mind is experienced to just be in the body / or all appears in Mind. (so called own body, other bodies, whatever there can be). I feel when experienced as mind being in body, there is the idea of a separate entity; an individual. By guidance of an Enlightened being, this can become clear to us.

Enlightened beings do not merely identify with how they appear at all, do not experience any separation or the idea of an individual. Many wonderful skilful guidances to help dissolve confusion are mentioned by great names of how they appeared/appear. But they realized their nature, which is the nature of all.

They are representing nature of all, and appear to connect, to invite in same nature by deleting confusion.

_/\_
Last edited by muni on Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by Ayu » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:46 am

I think, the path to realize non-duality has to start in duality. If there is no respect for the old and the young teachers, there is no way out at all, because we would reject their wise guidance.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by muni » Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

:namaste:

Gratitude and respect, oh yes Ayu. When we perceive masters as ordinary humans, and even persons with mistakes, there is no freedom possible.
Only by own clarity of mind it is possible to see enlightened activity, by our limitations we perceive our opinions which are reflected as what we perceive.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by jundo cohen » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:22 am

All sentient beings are already Buddha!

When we act in Wise and Compassionate ways we manifest Buddha.

When we act with greed, anger and ignorance we manifest Mara hiding Buddha.

Thus, to honor Great Ancestors who manifest Buddha Greatly is to honor Buddha.

(By the way, Stephen Batchelor has a love book on how Mara and Buddha dance. One of his few books not just about his usual secular proposals, recommended to all)

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/ ... edir_esc=y

http://www.tricycle.com/feature/living-devil

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by Bakmoon » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:53 am

Ayu wrote:I think, the path to realize non-duality has to start in duality. If there is no respect for the old and the young teachers, there is no way out at all, because we would reject their wise guidance.
:good:

Without relying on convention,
The ultimate cannot be shown.
Without realizing the ultimate,
Liberation cannot be attained.

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:43 pm

ok. all good points.

now lets look at the absolute "side" of muni's last post (in order of appearance):
be the sky
all-embracing not discriminating
all appears in Mind
By guidance of an Enlightened being, this can become clear to us [mind as body]
Enlightened beings do not merely identify with how they appear at all, do not experience any separation or the idea of an individual
they realized their nature, which is the nature of all
representing nature of all, and appear to connect, to invite in same nature by deleting confusion
in my humble opion, i think that is correct/ good advise. we can consider the great teacher(s) of our lives as humans. that means suffering of birth, old age, sickness death, change and fundamental ignorance. and the last one is a doozy, it includes all 12 links of dependent origination. but then, we think and hope, that those who were lucky enough to have great teachers, great samaya, or simply great insight (siddhartha gautama) actually where not reborn, not as a human, not as an animal, not as a hungry ghost, not as a hell being, not as a god, not as an anti-god. they were not reborn but rather joined with the ground luminosity at the bardo of dying (for example).

:group:

now that would require falling off the cliff of death, and not just breathing no more, not just defecating on yourself as all do when they die, not just going through the 4 dissolutions, not just being able to and willing to completely loose your individual human identity, but "you" would have actually succeeded in accepting: absence of defining characteristics, absence of origination, absence of cessation, absence of defilement, absence of undefilement, no increase or decrease. those are the three doors to emptiness, the cause, the result and the thing itself, all things are empty.

ok. so perhaps we have not done that in our recent lifetimes. but i hope that we will soon! ....back to the post, our great teachers, we hope have made or are making the preparations for this type of accomplishment. so when we consider them, why all the focus on human being? i could see some focus on their human form, like a parent looks at kids' pictures. but how about the other "life" points in the journey? and lets tackle the heart of this question, is the individual identity in buddha fields? why? how?

i mean, you could say, "yes. there is individual identity in the buddha fields!" so if you think that is the case, let's explore that possibility.... ...to support that idea, let's say that enlightenment is a state where you experience the relative truth and the absolute truth in the same cognative event and that means that you are still "you", sidhartha gauthama and padmasambava also are still individual at the same time as not being individual. OK. then you would need to work out the relationship between that reality and emptiness, the thing itself (first of three doors to emptiness): all things are empty and absence of defining characteristics.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by BrianG » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:52 am

tomschwarz wrote:dearestwhen we honor a buddhist human and say that he or she was so great, nagajuna, chandrakirti, rabjampa, padmasambava, etc... ....are we currupting the whole path like a tele-evangelist?
No, it is extremely virtuous.
...what I mean, if the whole path is focused on emptiness...
Emptiness was taught as an antidote to wrong view. It is not a path. The path has always been focused on bliss. Dukkha, suffering, needs to have the logical antidote applied, which is Sukkha(bliss), not Shunyata(emptiness).

If a practice does not have bliss as a result, it is not a Buddhist practice.
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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by smcj » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:44 am

isn't the whole point that due to their victory over fundemental ignorance, they no longer actively drive (yearn after) or participate in the illusion of independent existance, the cause of all suffering?
Yes, and therefore they experience truth (clarity), freedom (emptiness/unimpededness), and the ability to help others with their spiritual path (thugs rje/bodhicitta/love).
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:13 pm

smcj wrote: Yes, and therefore they experience truth (clarity), freedom (emptiness/unimpededness), and the ability to help others with their spiritual path (thugs rje/bodhicitta/love).
ok understood. by way of analogy.... oink oink the pig used his peaceful and non-manipulative/sincere animal existance to do great things such as caring for his family and some other plants and insects that benifited enormously through oink oink's daily and seemingly endless turning of the soil with his nose. oink oink was reborn as a human samayamanupalaya! and she did well again as Rachel. it is extraordinarily hard to be born as a human, so even those that knew of rachel's past did not call her oink oink....

now imagine if Rachel went even farther and trancended samsara itself! Rachel no longer turns soil with his pig nose and no longer toils endlessly with her woman hands. it attained enlightenment and is no longer trapped in the twelve links of dependent origination. she/he/it did it! samayamanupalaya!

there is no Rachel. that human died and will never exist again. same goes for oink oink. but according to Buddhism their mind stream in its subtle most Form remains. and it is in its true nature empty, absence of defining characteristics.

now. here we are in samsara. we think about Rachel. what a great nurse she was caring selflessly for the dienfrachsed and other living beings as well. but in the case of Rachel, her achievement is enlightenment and selflessness. it went, went beyond, went way way beyond.

"...in emptiness there is no form, no sensation, ... no attainment and no non-attainment" heart sutra

so when we say "she", fixated on rachel's human life, it is fitting if we are talking about samsara which is characterised by the first noble truth, the truth of suffering. in that analysis of the path, we should consider the achievements of oink oink as well.

but if we want to allude to the great accomplishment of enlightenment, why fixate on human existance? because we are human? that would make sense )))). that is the second noble truth, the truth of the cause of suffering, self centered attitude ))))).

good luck in the next western calendar year!!!
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by BrianG » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:37 pm

tomschwarz wrote: now. here we are in samsara. we think about Rachel. what a great nurse she was caring selflessly for the dienfrachsed and other living beings as well. but in the case of Rachel, her achievement is enlightenment and selflessness. it went, went beyond, went way way beyond.

"...in emptiness there is no form, no sensation, ... no attainment and no non-attainment" heart sutra

so when we say "she", fixated on rachel's human life, it is fitting if we are talking about samsara which is characterised by the first noble truth, the truth of suffering. in that analysis of the path, we should consider the achievements of oink oink as well.

but if we want to allude to the great accomplishment of enlightenment, why fixate on human existance? because we are human? that would make sense )))). that is the second noble truth, the truth of the cause of suffering, self centered attitude ))))).

good luck in the next western calendar year!!!
Self-centered attitude is close to what causes Samsara, however, the Buddha never said that there wasn't a "Self". What the Buddha said is that there isn't a permanent, independent "Self". Is there a dependently arisen, impermanent "Self"? Yes, absolutely. This is a subtle point, but the difference between the two is major. A dependently arisen self provides nothing to grasp on to. It doesn't mean nothing at all exists, which is the extreme of nihilism.
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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:02 am

BrianG wrote:
Self-centered attitude is close to what causes Samsara, however, the Buddha never said that there wasn't a "Self". What the Buddha said is that there isn't a permanent, independent "Self". Is there a dependently arisen, impermanent "Self"? Yes, absolutely. This is a subtle point, but the difference between the two is major. A dependently arisen self provides nothing to grasp on to. It doesn't mean nothing at all exists, which is the extreme of nihilism.

of course you are right about the relative self, as in "my self" existing dependently. and we agree also that self-centered attitude (is close to) what causes samsara. so let's return to two question of this post.

1) if we want to honor something (buddha) that has in many ways abandoned self-centered perspective, why refer to them in the context of their self? why not their selflessness, if that is a key foundation of their enlightenment?

2) in same vain, if selflessness is paramount in/in order to achieve enlightenment, as well as the absolute truth, why the firmly relative approach to personifying buddha"s"? I mean samantadadra/ri is enough endemic duality for buddhahood, no? it seems that we try to put as much self-centered attitude as we hAve here in samsara, into buddhahood... no?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:07 am

FYI, and most importantly, the reason I raise this post is simply because I fear that when death and the ground luminosity dawn, we could miss our opportunity because we don't understand how far selflessness must go in order to not be reborn. hence the brash analogy with the insincerity of a tele-evangelist ))))) seriously.... let's work this one out....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by BrianG » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:45 am

tomschwarz wrote: of course you are right about the relative self, as in "my self" existing dependently. and we agree also that self-centered attitude (is close to) what causes samsara. so let's return to two question of this post.
What causes Samsara is relative to the state of a mindstream. From the point of view of a sentient being, desire for rebirth is what causes Samsara. From the point of view a Bodhisattva, taking rebirth out of compassion is what causes Samsara. Compassion is a form of desire, but purified.
1) if we want to honor something (buddha) that has in many ways abandoned self-centered perspective, why refer to them in the context of their self? why not their selflessness, if that is a key foundation of their enlightenment?

2) in same vain, if selflessness is paramount in/in order to achieve enlightenment, as well as the absolute truth, why the firmly relative approach to personifying buddha"s"? I mean samantadadra/ri is enough endemic duality for buddhahood, no? it seems that we try to put as much self-centered attitude as we hAve here in samsara, into buddhahood... no?
A Buddha has three bodies(sometimes four, sometimes five, but let's keep it simple). These are actually what a Buddha has.

Nirmanakaya - A "physical" body of form. A body that arises in dependence on your karma. Something that all sentient beings innately posses, but must be uncovered.
Sambhogakaya - A form body of pure bliss. Once emotions are cleaned away, this is what is left over. The five aggregates also become the five blissful wisdoms.
Dharmakaya - A formless body of omniscience. This is how a Buddha helps sentient beings.

These bodies are all non-dual, in that they are interdependent.

How much in common do these bodies have with an ordinary person?

You shouldn't worship or personify the Buddha as a person, because persons are sentient beings, not Buddhas. You should be careful not to read too much into emptiness, because it is only one side of the coin.
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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by muni » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:15 pm

In my many delusions I think when we approach all by the mind/thoughts, all is very solid since thoughts form images by memory apprehensions, which are then cristalised. By believing/trusting thoughts, "we" identify, without realizing that, with thoughts/feelings. Then I is and there are all phenomena, all phenomena gets labels and I am judging you, you arises when I am. By this masters are of the same nature: also solid image apart from thoughts/us. Thoughts are seeing phenomena/things outside themselves and therefore seeking truths outside.

While thoughts have no ground to stay and no way to become solid by (nondual) awareness.

I am slave of mind, when I believe minds' stories of life are real, therefore I wish to get rid of that mind, run away. But it are my own grasping habits, which give mind its' power/existence. (My) thoughts cannot contain wisdom. They are useful but not what I am, we are.

In thoughts we are separate from the master, as nondual awareness not. In thoughts I pray for help to master, I pray to Guru Rinpoche, to get rid of these me-thought and its followers, or to not be conditioned by them.

But how can I get rid of something with which I identify?

Can a thought watch itself?
When the notions of real and unreal
Are absent from before the mind,
Then, there is no other possibility,
But to rest in total peace, beyond concepts.
May peace be inside for all. :namaste:
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:14 pm

"When the notions of real and unreal
Are absent from before the mind,
Then, there is no other possibility,
But to rest in total peace, beyond concepts."

Good one dear Muni. This the the correct way to honor/ relate to enlightened being.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: such a great (not an) individual

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:19 pm

...this also speaks volumes about the importance/goals of dream yoga and of what we must do at the time of death. it is inspiring and beautiful. thank you.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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