are you someone special?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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tomschwarz
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are you someone special?

Post by tomschwarz »

hello dear brothers and sisters,

? ...i think that i am not someone special. actually, i am quite certain that it is a downfall to consider myself special or to be considered by others as special. the problem is that, what we learn time and time again on the path, is that we must freely give the fruits of whatever small accomplishments we make, to others. we can not develop a territory for our practice. and if we do, make a place to hang our name, or allow others to do the same, we only face our own demise, and forgo the opportunity to help others in overcoming suffering.

if we build up an identity, how can we ever transform the three poisons into their pristine cognitions? how can i overcome self-centered perspective if i am not ordinary, but special? i am quite certain that the path of intelligence, the path of understanding cause and effect, dependent designation, dedication to the stability and peace in others, can only be incrementally achieved to the degree that we as individuals, disappear.

others? disagree?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
Vasana
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Vasana »

Overcoming our innate grasping at a sense of 'i', 'me' and 'mine' is pretty standard Buddhadharma. Theres not much to disagree on there.

'Since there is no self, there is no other'

Even mentally dividing things in to categories of 'special-ness' and 'ordinariness' can be a dualistic view unless everything is equally special or equally ordinary. In which case nothing is ultimately special or ordinary in the face of equality.

Conventually, teachings that guide beings beyond suffering are pretty special....but even that's quite ordinary in the ultimate sense :lol:
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by dzogchungpa »

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muni
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by muni »

we as individuals, disappear
This can be seen as nihilism, but is it not. Equipoise/Rigpa/Zen/Mahamudra....

It is suffering to be special. Thinking to be special is delusion. Thinking to be not special is delusion too and thinking to be equal special or not is also delusion. By these three the impartiality what is been talking about in the the tread of cognitive obscuration is not possible, since these are based on grasping/clinging to a self/individual. This definitely can need guidance and meditation. :meditate:

But talking about can look crazy complex! Can lead to many misunderstandings!

There are many names actually for such while unbiased simple nature has actually no any by it's own.
And then as nature there are no comparisons of anything to be made, since the comparing agent isn’t. There is no subject-action-object as wisdom-compassion.

This unbiased simple nature cannot be by study alone, this asks practice/meditation.

A student bows for the master, the master bows back. Or the master bows for the student, the student does the same. This is not equality of two, rather same nature ( Buddha Nature), free from any extremes. There is no other nature, "all" are nature, other nature can only be our dividing delusion/ideation/confusion/apprehended fabrication.
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Astus
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Astus »

"What is pride (mana)? It is exaltation of the mind (cittasyonnatih) which rests on the idea of self. Its function consists of giving a basis to the appearance of contempt (agaurava) and suffering."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 12)

"Soṇa, when any ascetics and brahmins, on the basis of form—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from not seeing things as they really are?
When any ascetics and brahmins, on the basis of feeling … on the basis of perception … on the basis of volitional formations … on the basis of consciousness—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from not seeing things as they really are?
Soṇa, when any ascetics and brahmins do not, on the basis of form—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from seeing things as they really are?
When any ascetics and brahmins do not, on the basis of feeling … on the basis of perception … on the basis of volitional formations … on the basis of consciousness—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from seeing things as they really are?"

(Sona Sutta)

THE NINE CONCEITS
One produces the conceit: "I am superior to others who are superior"; or one produces the conceit: "I am equal to the superior ones"; or one produces the conceit: "I am inferior to the superior ones;" or one produces the conceit: "I am superior to others who are like me;" or one produces the conceit: "I am inferior to others who are like me;" or one produces the conceit: "I am superior to those who are inferior;" or one produces the conceit: "I am equal to those who are inferior;" or one produces the conceit: "I am inferior to others who are inferior". These nine conceits are destroyed through the Path of Saintship.

(Vimuttimagga, p 317)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Grigoris
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Grigoris »

We are all "someone special", so I guess that makes us all the same. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Malcolm »

tomschwarz wrote:identity...
...is not the problem. Clinging to it, or thinking it is real, is the problem.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Conversely one might mistakenly feel that since one is not special or worthy in any way, one's own suffering does not matter. Though the answer to feeling inferior is not to feel superior, there are certain ideas that at face value can reinforce those feelings. I would say metta practice is an accessible antidote to both superiority and inferiority.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Grigoris
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Grigoris »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:Conversely one might mistakenly feel that since one is not special or worthy in any way, one's own suffering does not matter. Though the answer to feeling inferior is not to feel superior, there are certain ideas that at face value can reinforce those feelings. I would say metta practice is an accessible antidote to both superiority and inferiority.
Actually, to consider oneself lesser than those below you is also a case of pride.

In the text Wheel of Sharp Weapons there are two problems identified: self cherishing (to which the antidote is relative bodhicitta, ie love and compassion) and self grasping (to which the antidote is absolute bodhicitta, ie wisdom). The text deals with the various karmic repercussions of self cherishing and grasping, and their antidotes.

Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Ayu
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Ayu »

I think, every single being is something special. That's what we all have in common.
So, there is no reason for pride to be something special - but there is much scope for appreciation of the specialness of others. :smile:
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by boda »

If every being is special then the term has no meaning, at least in regard to beings.
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Ayu
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Ayu »

boda wrote:If every being is special then the term has no meaning, at least in regard to beings.
Right.
My point is, as Tsongkhapa said: "Appreciation is the root of the wholesome processes."
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by boda »

I believe the OP suggests that the degree to which we disappear (or perhaps realize our true nature) is the path to wisdom. Ignorance being the root of suffering. Appreciation is evaluative in nature. For instance, we may not appreciate what is unwholesome.
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tomschwarz
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by tomschwarz »

Astus wrote: Soṇa, when any ascetics and brahmins do not, on the basis of form—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from seeing things as they really are?
thank you astus... how do you regard yourself as not superior, not inferior, and not equal? we also must not have identity, or? for example, if you have identity x, and another being has identity y, surely they would be regarded as not equal (as well as potentially similar, etc...).
Malcolm wrote: (identity) ...is not the problem. Clinging to it, or thinking it is real, is the problem.
..same question for you malcolm. i think that you would say identity does not exist, meaning that it can not be established. but you attribute some sort of being to identity in so far as it does exist to the degree that it "is not the problem". If it completely did not exist, one might think, "what identity"? no?
Ayu wrote: appreciation of the specialness of others
...same question ayu. how do you appreciate others without seeing yourself as ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior’?

other comments seem to agree that individual identity gets consumed/"re-wired" by the ultimate truth, even if it remains as "special sauce"...like on a "big mac" only that you take your "sauce on the side". in other words, yes identity exists, but it is a poison that must be accepted and naturally transformed in some way? e.g. without renunciation? there is some basis for that perspective in the vajrayana:

Ratna Heruka/ ratna he-ru-ka The natural transformation of pride into the pristine cognition of sameness
Ratnasambhava/ rin-chen 'byung-gnas The pristine cognition of sameness, the natural purity of the aggregate of feeling free from pride
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Astus
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Astus »

tomschwarz wrote:how do you regard yourself as not superior, not inferior, and not equal? we also must not have identity, or? for example, if you have identity x, and another being has identity y, surely they would be regarded as not equal (as well as potentially similar, etc...).
As the quoted Sona Sutta says, when the aggregates are seen in terms of "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self", then one sees correctly, and there is no basis any more for such comparisons. Conceit is one of the ten fetters that eventually one has to be free from.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Ayu
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Ayu »

tomschwarz wrote:
Ayu wrote: appreciation of the specialness of others
...same question ayu. how do you appreciate others without seeing yourself as ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior’?
....
Do you think, there is a self needed in order to appreciate others? I think, it is opposite: it is easy to appreciate others, if the focus on oneself is minimized. Just forget about that self while focusing on the well-being of others.
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tomschwarz
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by tomschwarz »

Ayu wrote:
tomschwarz wrote:
Ayu wrote: appreciation of the specialness of others
...same question ayu. how do you appreciate others without seeing yourself as ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior’?
....
Do you think, there is a self needed in order to appreciate others? I think, it is opposite: it is easy to appreciate others, if the focus on oneself is minimized. Just forget about that self while focusing on the well-being of others.
yes, of course you are right ayu.

what i think is really exciting about this thread is to understand how we personally, realize the perspective of not seeing others as superior, inferior, or equal. for example do you see me as one of these categories? what does it mean to you overcome those three perspectives? in other words, without those perspectives, how do you relate to others? to me? (feel free to use a mcdonalds analogy, or other fast food, as needed)
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
Jeff H
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by Jeff H »

This forum has a lot of bright academics and accomplished practitioners, but I think it’s nearly impossible for ordinary beings (i.e. we, the unenlightened) to avoid applying judgments of lower, higher, equal. In The Way of the Bodhisattva, chapter 8:140-154, Shantideva provides a guided meditation on lower, higher, equal. The meditation caricatures how I have acted in the past based on such personal biases. It allows me to mentally witness my judgmental thoughts from the perspective of others. The purpose is to help me realize how pernicious it is. Then he sums up the message of exchanging self for others in 8:155-156.
155.
Countless ages, O my mind,
You spent, desiring to attain your aims.
And what great weariness it was,
While your reward was only misery!

156.
And therefore now most certainly
Apply yourself completely to the good of others.
The Buddha did not lie in what he said—
You’ll see the benefits that come from it.
I agree with Ayu that one practical way to do this is to have appreciation for everyone. Strive to observe and learn something positive from everyone, regardless of whether I like, dislike, or don’t care about them. Regardless, too, of whether the positive thing I learn arises from positive or negative aspects of the person.

Geshe Langri Tangpa says it a little differently. For him, putting oneself beneath all others is understood to be done without judgment. Lojong emphasizes destroying one’s own negativity and fostering one’s own virtue, then celebrating any other being who makes that possible for us, and dedicating all virtues to the benefit of other beings. But without judgment, which is the flaw Shantideva addresses in his exchanging self for other meditation.
[i]In Eight Verses for Training the Mind[/i], Geshe Langri Tangpa wrote:With the thought of attaining enlightenment
For the welfare of all beings,
Who are more precious than wish-fulfilling jewels,
I will constantly practice holding them dear.

Whenever I am with others
I will practice seeing myself as the lowest of all,
And from the very depths of my heart
I will hold others dear and supreme.

In all actions I will examine my mind and
The moment a delusion arises
Endangering myself and others
I will confront and avert it without delay.

Whenever I meet a person of bad nature
Who is overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering,
I will hold such a rare one dear,
As if I had found a precious treasure.

When others, out of jealousy,
Mistreat me with abuse, slander, and scorn,
I will practice accepting defeat
And offering the victory to them.

When someone I have benefited
And in whom I have placed great trust
Hurts me very badly,
I will practice seeing that person as my supreme teacher.

In short, I will offer directly and indirectly
Every benefit and happiness to all beings, my mothers.
I will practice in secret taking upon myself
All their harmful actions and suffering.

Through perceiving all phenomena as illusory I will keep these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly concerns,
And, free from clinging, I will release all beings
From the bondage of the disturbing, unsubdued mind and karma.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
muni
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by muni »

Seeing 'someone' as special or not special or whatever is also by the idea of a self, or I, which is a concept by believing habitual thoughts as we learn to be 'someone', 'an individual'. And of course "we" are not nothing.
Ego or I, experienced as something to protect, to please, as one what doesn’t change ( look this is me as baby and yesterday my mood was so and today I…clearly not unchangeable.) and is seen as stable independent entity with its characteristics, sees others as well as stable independent individuals with their unchangeable characteristics.

In fact this proves emptiness, since a perceived person can differ. For some he is a father, a brother, an uncle, a client, a college, a neighbour, a boring one, a beloved one, a son, a teacher, a tourist and so on.
One on the bus we do not know can look nice, disturbing, great, friendly or whatever due to our own karmic baggage and perception/ dependent on our mind, but we are convinced it is so.
Another example is the politics, and this shows as well many can have a bit same karmic baggage. Maybe this is called democracy.

As “nondual awareness there is no conceptual thinking”, with its’ solidified ideas of independent beings who are special by special me….

Even “wholesome action infiltrated by a clinging to the I, conceived as something real and solid, turns to poison”. ( Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche) This because we cannot realize our nature when we keep pleasing/protecting that special I, me, mine, my and rejecting or neglecting all what doesn’t please I, me, mine since they are not special, not good,..by my opinion.
By study- inquiry-practice-meditation-non conceptual contemplation solid I can dissolve.
But solid me studying solid dharma is like sitting on the beach and studying about the depths of the ocean.

o o
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tomschwarz
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Re: are you someone special?

Post by tomschwarz »

muni wrote: Even “wholesome action infiltrated by a clinging to the I, conceived as something real and solid, turns to poison”. ( Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche) This because we cannot realize our nature when we keep pleasing/protecting that special I
This is how it is. So I am not special, I must be nice, no fighting and time for meditation. I will come back in time. Now silent practice for all of what you have taught me.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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