Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:00 pm

I've come to recognize three key states of "heightened" consciousness: flow, mindfulness, and nondual awareness. Here are my takes on each:

Flow is immersion in the current activity that is so deep there is no brain CPU left to create a sense of self, or time, or desires (except to the extent that these are built into the fabric of the activity). It's similar to autopilot in terms of the feeling that things happen "on their own."

Mindfulness is nonjudgmental noticing of whatever arises in consciousness (whatever's going on here/now). Buddhist mindfulness incorporates vipassana-like insight into the process.

Nondual awareness is ____________ (beyond words, but something like resting in thusness = tathata).

It seems to me that there's a time and place for each of these states, as well as for normal everyday dual mind. Part of the challenge is to come to know, intuitively, which state is appropriate at the moment.
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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:36 pm

Am I missing anything important?
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:33 pm

rachmiel wrote:Part of the challenge is to come to know, intuitively, which state is appropriate at the moment.
Are they mutually exclusive to happen at the same time?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:06 pm

Interesting question.

Mindfulness and flow seem mutually exclusive, because flow is like autopilot and mindfulness is the opposite. Otoh an argument can be made that one can flow in any activity, including mindfulness. Likewise, that one can be mindful of anything, even flow.

Nondual awareness seems to be a state unto itself, quite distinct from either mindfulness or flow.

But I don't know with any kind of certainty ... nor do I honestly care, since I believe that these states and consciousness itself are ultimately conceptual constructs and not "the real thing" (tathata).

What do you think?
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by dreambow » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:26 pm

Ultimately no mindfulness, no flow. Stay in the silence without expectation. It may seem like a blank but stay with it without naming it.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:17 am

I'd call this nondual awareness.
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White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:03 pm

Rachmiel, please tell us more about non dual awareness. is it normal awareness? i understand flow and mindfulness. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:07 pm

Lotus, howdy.

What I mean by non-dual awareness is something like pure unadorned being. Tilopa points to it with:

No past.
No future.
No present.
No analysis.
No control.
Rest.
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:44 pm

howdy! is there also no observer of the 'no' present? no "this" observing and no "this" observed? unconscious?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:34 pm

Yes as far as I understand:

In non-dual awareness, there is no felt observer/observed duality, no agent (I) present that is observing something.

So how do you know you were or are non-dually aware? I'd guess either from memory after the fact (if non-dual awareness leaves some trace in memory), or by being aware of the non-dual awareness as it is happening.
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:17 pm

no grasp of visual memory. you dont see anything. you are unconscious of "this". have no mind. have attained unenlightenment?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:56 pm

:stirthepot: Enlightenment is to unenlightenment as matter is to antimatter? :twothumbsup:

If you stay in non-dual awareness long enough does your "previous" identity become like a dream (in a dream (in a dream (in a ...))) ?
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Tao » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:46 am

Just mi opinion:

>Flow is immersion in the current activity that is so deep there is no brain CPU left to create a sense of self, or time, or desires (except to the extent that these are built into the fabric of the activity). It's similar to autopilot in terms of the feeling that things happen "on their own."

Nice, but irrelevant for liberation purposes... I use to rock climb always in a flow state... no wisdom... No sense of self but no presence there to adquire wisdom

>Mindfulness is nonjudgmental noticing of whatever arises in consciousness (whatever's going on here/now). Buddhist mindfulness incorporates vipassana-like insight into the process.

Nice. But there're a lot to say about Presence, it all depens on the maturity of the "who" that is present. From a rough mental proces, with effort, to a quite mature natural "transparent" observer (usually after awakening) which principal characteristic is that it has no centre at all, just observation. But if you feel you are "the witness" of the arisings then the mental construct of a silent subject is strong...

> Nondual awareness is ____________ (beyond words, but something like resting in thusness = tathata)

No subject mental construct present. But atention present (that's the difference with flow). Brighter percepction and collapsing of outer-inner sensation, nothing is out or in, just is, right? Keeping mindfulness in this position is real mindfulness. You remember what happen because of memory, right, but isnt that always the case?

Also the feeling maybe that "the subject" is locked in the now, and not operational because of that (you cant desire o reject if you have no time available)

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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Tao » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:55 am

I may add. There're two stages of perception that usually are tagged as "Non-dual"

The first one is characterized by brightness and non-conceptuality, is mostly possible as conceptuality is absent to an extent (in deep and time) but the "witness" is present, as a silent witness. So it's not real non-dual.

Second is a bit (or maybe a lot) deeper and apart from brightness you will feel the collapse of in and out... the subject construct is quite deconstructed then.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:12 pm

Tao, hi.

>> Flow is ...

> Nice, but irrelevant for liberation purposes...

It's not insight meditation, true. But I think there's more to it than just being nice.

>> Mindfulness is ...

> ... there're a lot to say about Presence, it all depens on the maturity of the "who" that is present. From a rough mental proces, with effort, to a quite mature natural "transparent" observer (usually after awakening) which principal characteristic is that it has no centre at all, just observation.

Agreed. Mindfulness can run the gamut from dual mechanical (data reception/processing) to non-dual organic (observer=observed). The former can be a gateway to the latter in my experience.

>> Nondual awareness is ...

> No subject mental construct present. But atention present (that's the difference with flow). Brighter percepction and collapsing of outer-inner sensation, nothing is out or in, just is, right?

Something like this for me too.
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White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:19 pm

unenlightenment is cessation of mind/awareness. there is no observer and no observed. but there is observing/prajna.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:26 pm

matter:antimatter? unenlightenment wouldnt know. :popcorn:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:24 pm

White Lotus wrote:unenlightenment is cessation of mind/awareness. there is no observer and no observed. but there is observing/prajna.
Is that really called unenlightenment? Or is that term a White Lotus special? :quoteunquote:
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Tao » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:42 pm

> Agreed. Mindfulness can run the gamut from dual mechanical (data reception/processing) to non-dual organic (observer=observed). The former can be a gateway to the latter in my experience.

Agree

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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Tao » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:48 pm

>It seems to me that there's a time and place for each of these states, as well as for normal everyday dual mind. Part of the challenge is to come to know, intuitively, which state is appropriate at the moment.

I dont see it that way, just non-dual awareness and non-dual mindfulness are the natural state or at least the closer it get to it by now.

I dont see any value in flow, anyone can "flow", it fact when most of us watch tv or a movie are zombies "without subject" or when you sleep, so many of our time at the beginning is without subject and without presence, but as no presence is there, no wisdom arises, so it's not very useful. Most of normal lifes are 80% auto-pilot for their whole lifetime... Ey, I like climbing in the flow... dont get me wrong, but you wont get any wisdom from there... as I like to sleep and dont get any... Or maybe you mean another thing with flow? different from auto-pilot-

Auto-pilot is just working as known by the mind (karmic imprints) without a self interfering... nice, but as you work only as known, you cannot adquire wisdom, just maintain samsara... You cannot even learn to do those tasks better, for that you will need to get out of the auto-pilot mode and apply atention...

But it's very rewarding when you see you can be exactly that efective as in the flow but in non-dual awareness, in motion... in action... but learning...

So, as mindfulness is treated from non-dual awareness point of view only ONE state remains... and this is THE state.

Just my opinion.

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