Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:51 pm

it is Unenlightenment since there is no grasp of enlightenment. "this" is gone. emptiness alone. sunyagatta. sunyatman.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:02 pm

be mindful of "this" and so recognise enlightenment. know "this" just as it is and you will have no doubts. then it vanishes!
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:20 am

Tao wrote:>It seems to me that there's a time and place for each of these states, as well as for normal everyday dual mind. Part of the challenge is to come to know, intuitively, which state is appropriate at the moment.

I dont see it that way, just non-dual awareness and non-dual mindfulness are the natural state or at least the closer it get to it by now.
You are admirably single-minded about moving from samsara to the natural state, not seeing any value in flow or any other state of mind except non-dual awareness/mindfulness.

I am not interested in leaving samsara. In fact, I really enjoy certain aspects of it: the struggle, the drama, all the shiny things! I guess you could say I have one foot in samsara and one in the dharma.

I love flow because it feels good. No doubt buncha euphoric neurochemicals are released during flow experiences, and this here rachMiel organism likes the feeling of them a lot.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:21 am

White Lotus wrote:be mindful of "this" and so recognise enlightenment. know "this" just as it is and you will have no doubts. then it vanishes!
:twothumbsup: :meditate: :namaste:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Tao
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Tao » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:16 am

>I am not interested in leaving samsara.

Ok. I thought you were, Enjoy then!

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:51 am

:namaste:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Astus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Astus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:17 am

rachmiel wrote:I've come to recognize three key states of "heightened" consciousness: flow, mindfulness, and nondual awareness.
What's the use of such states? How do they relate to liberation?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Soma999
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Soma999 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:53 pm

If flow (linked with pure energy), mindfulness (the blue sky of full consciousness) and non duality is not linked with liberation, then i'm just wondering what is liberation. Well in fact, before this post i was still wondering.

Would it be some kind of extraterrestrial who comes, saying "dear buddhist, i was waiting for you, come with me, let's leave this planet of wordly worshippers... come. let's have unlimited bliss but without sexuality, good food and abundance because we have to stay pure...").

Oh sorry, just kidding...

Still, i'm wondering and surprised by your post.

dreambow
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by dreambow » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:10 pm

Can you really speak of non dual awareness and states all in one breath? States come and go...so its not that.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:17 pm

Astus wrote:
rachmiel wrote:I've come to recognize three key states of "heightened" consciousness: flow, mindfulness, and nondual awareness.
What's the use of such states? How do they relate to liberation?
Flow enables us to perform difficult tasks (skiing down a steep narrow path). Mindfulness helps us be present. And non-dual awareness is a residing in _____________ (truth, the ground, etc.).
Astus wrote:How do they relate to liberation?
Flow can help us work through a complex teaching, or a tough day at a retreat, etc. Mindfulness can keep us grounded in the present moment. And non-dual awareness IS liberation ... or at least a doorway to it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:24 pm

dreambow wrote:Can you really speak of non dual awareness and states all in one breath? States come and go...so its not that.
Are you saying that non-dual awareness is always present? That it's not some mode of consciousness we have to conjure up, but that it's always there, always aware-ing even in moments of rage, hatred, panic, deep sleep? Awareness is one of those terms that is anywhere from subtly to dramatically different in meaning depending on who's using it: Buddhists, Advaitins, cognitive psychologists, neuroscientists, etc.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Astus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Astus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:06 pm

rachmiel wrote:Flow can help us work through a complex teaching, or a tough day at a retreat, etc.
"immersion in the current activity ... similar to autopilot in terms of the feeling that things happen "on their own."" - a complex teaching needs complex thinking to understand, so I don't see how that helps. This flow is basically just getting lost in experiences without a shred of reflection.
Mindfulness can keep us grounded in the present moment.
And that is good for what?
And non-dual awareness IS liberation ... or at least a doorway to it.
Since it is a conditioned state, it is hardly liberation. And as long as one imagines it to be anything special, it is a doorway only to more attachments.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:24 pm

Astus wrote:
rachmiel wrote:Flow can help us work through a complex teaching, or a tough day at a retreat, etc.
"immersion in the current activity ... similar to autopilot in terms of the feeling that things happen "on their own."" - a complex teaching needs complex thinking to understand, so I don't see how that helps. This flow is basically just getting lost in experiences without a shred of reflection.
Flow happens when both the difficulty of a task and the skills of the performer are high: It's being confronted with a tough challenge and having the knowledge/chutzpah to meet it. Thinking about a complex text satisfies both of these. When you are so immersed in reading/contemplating a teaching that you forget about time, food, self ... you are in flow.
Mindfulness can keep us grounded in the present moment.
And that is good for what?
Direct experience of what-is.
And non-dual awareness IS liberation ... or at least a doorway to it.
Since it is a conditioned state, it is hardly liberation. And as long as one imagines it to be anything special, it is a doorway only to more attachments.
Would all Buddhist and Tibetan Buddhist schools agree that non-dual awareness is a conditioned state? Advaitins would say no, non-dual awareness (brahman) is unconditioned and state-less.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Astus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Astus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:31 pm

rachmiel wrote:When you are so immersed in reading/contemplating a teaching that you forget about time, food, self ... you are in flow.
In other words, it is an enjoyable activity. Such activities are what can serve as a good basis for craving.
Direct experience of what-is.
How is that different from recognising that it is raining?
Would all Buddhist and Tibetan Buddhist schools agree that non-dual awareness is a conditioned state? Advaitins would say no, non-dual awareness (brahman) is unconditioned and state-less.
Non-duality in Buddhism means the freedom from grasping at the concepts of existence and non-existence. It is not a state to be in.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:27 pm

Astus wrote:
rachmiel wrote:When you are so immersed in reading/contemplating a teaching that you forget about time, food, self ... you are in flow.
In other words, it is an enjoyable activity. Such activities are what can serve as a good basis for craving.
Flow definitely can be enjoyable. But even more than that, it's immersive, you bring all your energy/focus to bear on accomplishing a challenging task.
Direct experience of what-is.
How is that different from recognising that it is raining?
It's less concept-heavy, more vivid.
Would all Buddhist and Tibetan Buddhist schools agree that non-dual awareness is a conditioned state? Advaitins would say no, non-dual awareness (brahman) is unconditioned and state-less.
Non-duality in Buddhism means the freedom from grasping at the concepts of existence and non-existence. It is not a state to be in.
So Buddhism does not have "non-dual awareness" in its vocabulary?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:26 pm

ordinary awareness is non dual. it doesn't pick and choose. it's empty. "this" is awareness. rain falling. toad croaking.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Astus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Astus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:31 pm

rachmiel wrote:It's less concept-heavy, more vivid.
Are concepts not part of what is?
So Buddhism does not have "non-dual awareness" in its vocabulary?
Buddhist vocabulary exists in Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan. What is the term you are looking for? For instance, "non-dual mind" (不二心) or "non-dual awareness" (不二知) are not found in the Chinese Buddhist dictionary, nor "non-dual intellect" (不二意) or "non-dual consciousness" (不二識).

Garfield (Buddhist Philosophy: Essential Readings, p 44) uses it in his translation of Trisvabhavanirdesa:

"In the same way, through the non-perception of duality
There is the vanishing of duality.
When it vanishes completely,
Non-dual awareness arises."


However, the same stanza by Anacker (Seven Works of Vasubandhu, p 295):

"With the non-apprehension of duality, the appearance of duality vanishes,
and with this disappearance, the fulfilled, the non-being of duality, is understood."


And Kochumutton (A Buddhist Doctrine of Experience, p 252):

"By the non-perception of duality
The form of duality disappears;
The non-duality resulting from its disappearance
Is then attained."


And indeed, I don't see any sign of "non-dual awareness" in the Sanskrit:

dvayasyānupalambhena dvayākāro vigacchati|
vigamāt tasya niṣpanno dvayābhāvo'dhigamyate||
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:02 pm

“non-dual awareness” is often mentioned in English by Tibetan Masters, as in bön tradition. And here few examples:
Empty awareness, however, is not a blank torpor: it possesses—of itself—luminous knowingness or non-dual awareness.

http://aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text ... kr_eng.php
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:

What propels us endlessly through samsara is dualistic thinking. And what all the different approaches come down to is how the task of dualistic thinking is dissolved.

We need to gradually dispense with conceptual thinking.
In non-dual awareness, conceptual thinking cannot remain.

What we call the dualistic mind is always involved in upholding the concepts of perceiver and perceived. Rigpa however, (original wakefulness, non-dual awareness) is by nature without duality.

“What is to be practiced has nothing to do with thoughts and conceptual mind…The main practice is to simply rest vividly awake in this nondual awareness. Relax loosely, and remain naturally. Totally relax and do not check or question; remain totally free from accepting or rejecting—that is the conducive situation for meeting the natural face of awareness. Apart from this, you don’t need anything else to meditate upon." Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"nondual pristine awareness", Patrul Rinpoche.
What language nature speaks?
Last edited by muni on Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:19 pm

non duality is not linked with liberation, then i'm just wondering what is liberation.
Nondual Nature is Buddha Nature.

"The union of wisdom and emptiness is the essence of Buddha-hood or what is ... an essential nature which is "pure radiant non-dual consciousness".
it doesn't pick and choose.
Thank you. But I picked this. :smile:
Last edited by muni on Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:50 pm

White Lotus wrote:ordinary awareness is non dual. it doesn't pick and choose. it's empty. "this" is awareness. rain falling. toad croaking.
Not sure what you mean by "ordinary awareness" White Lotus. "I feel these keys as I'm typing" is what I'd call ordinary awareness. But there's a subject/object duality in that: I / keys.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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