Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:26 am

rachmiel wrote:It seems to me that flow is focused non-dual awareness.

Let's say I play a solo piano piece in a concert. While I am playing, I am in flow. There is no sense of rachMiel/piano/keys/notes ... there is simply: music. There is tremendous focus in this, but no felt duality.
And as focus is ending, there is flow flowing into nondual awareness, which is focus on no anything?
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:42 pm

Image
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:45 am

rachmiel wrote:Image
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:43 pm

thank you Rachmiel for your beautiful video clip! :namaste:
And as focus is ending, there is flow flowing into nondual awareness, which is focus on no anything?
with realisation of "this" there is focus and enlightenment, something that can be grasped, or seen. focus however ends when "this" falls off. then there is only flowing but without awareness. awareness of unawareness. no focus on anything is possible. only flowing. you are as if asleep whilst awake.

"this" is non dual awareness. "unconsciousness" is unawareness. Tathagata is all this, patriarchs (sunyagata) are unaware, they just flow. e.g Bodhidharma who spoke of unconsciousness as the final end of buddhist practice.

Muni, i would call awareness of emptiness non dual. in the state of unconsciousness there is awareness of emptiness, but thats all, you cant hold onto it and its thoroughly normal as if there is no attainment, only the loss of "this". no abiding, nothing to abide in, no one to abide in anything.

i call unconscious "unenlightenment" because enlightenment has been dropped with "this". Tathata/suchness is no longer seen. the mountain has vanished in a haze of mist.

best wishes, Tom x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:49 pm

is non dual awareness the same thing as unconsciousness?

so long as there is any awareness of this or that there is not unconsciousness.

if you have dropped "this" and are only aware of emptiness then you are unconscious.

in my experience non dual awareness could be seen as realisation of emptiness, but only if it is unconscious and has not a thing to hold onto. no abiding.

:popcorn:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:56 pm

i believe that "flow" could be seen as unconsciousness.

it may be that "non dual awareness" is also unconsciousness... but only if it is unaware of things. aware only of emptiness because it has no seeing.

how do you understand non dual awareness Rachmiel and Muni? :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:16 pm

White Lotus, can I ask, what you mean with the expression unconscious?
You write flow is unconscious. Not unconsciousness as asleep, I guess? Since there is clarity. There are no thoughts? Since by the example of playing piano, when playing a thought arises and is grasped: oh someone is listening, I may not make mistakes...now sol-si black... then the nondual flow is broken and so there will be one struggling with sounds, notes, fingers, conditioned by thoughts.

ps And the audiance keep their ears closed. :)
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:20 am

White Lotus wrote:how do you understand non dual awareness
I don't. :tongue:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:53 am

i like your not understanding Rachmiel. its unenlightened! :tongue: if non dual awareness is emptiness, then there can be no understanding of non dual awareness. not a thing to hold onto. nameless and wordless. beyond understanding. the unconscious is emptiness. therefore non dual awareness could well be unconsciousness. i think its the same thing. the awareness of emptiness would be non dual awareness. that i can accept.
White Lotus, can I ask, what you mean with the expression unconscious?
unconscious means that not a thing is seen except emptiness. i look at an object but cant really see it. seeing without seeing. like a dream. it means that everything is empty. everything has disappeared when "this" has dropped away.

You write flow is unconscious. Not unconsciousness as asleep, I guess?
its like everything is empty. seeing i am blind. thinking thoughts are not held onto. its like the conscious mind has dissapeared and the unconsciousness has become conscious. as if consciousness has dissolved with "this" and unconsciousness has taken over. the unconsciousness of sleep has emerged into or replaced ordinary consciousness. the unconscious has become conscious, the conscious has become unconscious.
Since there is clarity. There are no thoughts?


if clarity is ordinary seeing there is no awareness of simple clarity. if clarity is emptiness then there is seeing of clarity. things are no longer seen. there are thoughts, but no mind thinking them. i dont yet understand the implication of this for thoughts. i am observing to see the nature of thought in the unconscious. thoughts are not needed in order to know.
Since by the example of playing piano, when playing a thought arises and is grasped
i am not sure but think that thoughts are like visual data, they cannot be grasped because they are empty. everything is empty.
: oh someone is listening, I may not make mistakes...now sol-si black... then the nondual flow is broken and so there will be one struggling with sounds, notes, fingers, conditioned by thoughts.
the non dual flow? yes, i think you are right to call the flow non dual. i think that non dual awareness is emptiness, but what is it aware of? i cant see anything. it is aware of only emptiness! flow cannot be broken. once unconscious you are constantly unconscious. there is seeing as if in a dream, as though there were no seeing. the no seeing is emptiness.

this state of unconsciousness is unenlightened. there are still problems and concerns. life is not easy. there are however now no likes and dislikes, loves or hates... which in itself takes a bit of getting used to.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:23 am

Rachmiel, at the start of this thread you recognise three states of being or mind... flow, mindfulness and non-dual awareness. through your questions i have come to learn that flow and non-dual awareness are probably both expressions of emptiness or unconsciousness. it is prajna or mindfulness that enables us to see emptiness.

so i agree that you have chosen a remarkable group of three states of mind. i cannot add to this, but would be very grateful if someone else on dharma wheel could add to this group of three. it would be good to say Rachmiel that you have left nothing out. but it seems perhaps that we 'know' too much! where perhaps really all there is to know is emptiness.

when we know emptiness what do we know and who or what knows it? we know not a thing, nor is there anyone knowing it. it it beyond words, beyond "this" and beyond understanding. :namaste:

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by muni » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:02 pm

if non dual awareness is emptiness, then there can be no understanding of non dual awareness. not a thing to hold onto. nameless and wordless. beyond understanding.
there are thoughts, but no mind thinking them
thoughts are not needed in order to know.
_/\_
flow cannot be broken
If you would come here and I play piano, you would say: unbelievable, it can! lol.

Nondual Nature is always, cannot be broken. But is hidden by my dreams.

Thank you, White Lotus.
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:02 pm

have just ordered Anam Thubten's third and latest book. am big fan! he's wise. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:10 pm

playing the piano flow can be broken. once unconsciousness is entered, all is unconscious. all is flow. flowing, stopping etc. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:21 pm

White Lotus wrote:have just ordered Anam Thubten's third and latest book. am big fan! he's wise. :namaste:
I've attended two Anam Thubten retreats and gotten to know him a bit (local sangha here). Very sweet guy, but has teeth ... I told him once he was part innocent boy and part demon. (He loved it.) At one of the retreats he was like a drill sergeant: Rigpa! Rigpa! Rigpa! Rigpa!

Didn't know a new book of his was out, thanks. Gonna go see what's what ...
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:24 pm

White Lotus wrote:all is flow.
No beginning, no end, no present moment. Just: flow. :rolling:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by White Lotus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:16 pm

sounds right but i dont know. anam must once have been a snow lion me thinks.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri May 10, 2019 2:41 am

I returned to this 2016 thread to see whether my thinking about flow has changed. And it has!

My 2019 take:

Flow is a form of deep immersion in an activity. (Usually a difficult activity that you have the expertise to perform well.) In this immersion your mind is so occupied <being immersed> that there's no processing power left for the usual malarkey: I-construct construction, monkey mind, bemoaning the past, worrying about the future, etc. It is a state in which the default division between experiencer and experienced is minimized.

Though similar in some ways to states of mind arrived at in meditation, especially samatha, flow is its own thing.

And though flow generally feels good ... flowing without being grounded in the right view doesn't nudge you much towards realization.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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SunWuKong
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by SunWuKong » Fri May 10, 2019 5:43 am

Did you seriously just ressurrect your own thread from 2016? I'm astonished by that
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Rick
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by Rick » Fri May 10, 2019 11:30 am

Flow is a topic I revisit regularly, and my view on it has changed over the years.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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SunWuKong
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Re: Flow, mindfulness, nondual awareness

Post by SunWuKong » Fri May 10, 2019 5:02 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:30 am
Flow is a topic I revisit regularly, and my view on it has changed over the years.
Have you looked at it from the perspective of kinesthetic memory? For example a jazz musician who bypasses mind and theory and whose fingers move as the heart moves?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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