TranscendIng self

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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tomschwarz
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TranscendIng self

Postby tomschwarz » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:29 am

Hello sisters and brothers,

I think a goal of human Buddhist practice is to transcend the sense of self. Is this true? If yes, does that area of practice also include release from attachment to inner calm (self peace)? How far does it/should it go, or not go, to actually remove the sense of self? Are we interested in removing all self-originated perspectives (e.g. my personal opinion)?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby muni » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:28 am

I guess many like to transcend this conceptual world, which is maintained by the sense of self. This sense of self is the source of all harm and suffering. A sense of self knowing all about selflessness is not useful and is not liberating. Since isn't liberation actually liberation from that sense of self?
Then we can have a moment our sense of self is seen as the cause of all suffering, and by this sense of self there are others which are liked, disliked or neutral. Guru Rinpoche: “others are the biased perception of ego.” And so there is samsara.

There is only pain, craving, desiring, wishing, avoiding, attracting, clinging, rejecting, accepting… and so no peace. It is like an imagined magnet who has the ability to both attract and push away its own solidified projections to protect its’ imagined self. And what is an opinion other than dreamlike by a self, thinking things, being mastered by that sense of self?

My opinion is that this is very delicate topic, because if we talk about, there can be an unease, when there is the sense of other by the sense of self, there can even arise aversion when we hear someone talking about . While rejoicing is releasing this unease, rejoicing for the fading of suffering and is also releasing our grasping pain by our sense of self, since this sense is loosening, is said. Or we can recognize our nature by which there is no sense of self and so no sense of other, then there is no any opinion left neither.

The only thing “we” can come to know is the suffering by the sense of self, which is crucial to come out of our turning dream.

How far does it/should it go, or not go, to actually remove the sense of self?
Till awaken and stabilized? Therefore I hear saying: even thrown in a lion cage, don’t lose faith.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Felix
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby Felix » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:37 am

I think your first sentence is problematic, which then skews what follows.
The idea of 'transcending' implies the existence of an entity which survives gaining insight into the lack of a self.
Buddhism says that such an entity, which would be an atta in some sense, does not exist.
Once that is clearly understood it follows that all self referencing is seen as convention only.
It is not necessary to construct a self and then dismantle it. The arising of prajna without cause shows what is already the case.

muni
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby muni » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:41 am

Somehow on topic as well: Who are you?
phpBB [video]
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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tomschwarz
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby tomschwarz » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:10 pm

So if we take either direction, self is poison, muni, or self is illusion and prajna naturally arises, we oversimplify, think. Of course, I agree with what you are both saying. The problem arises when we try to say that all duality is bad, the relative truth is bad, absolute truth is good, absolute love is good, meditation is good, conflicted mental states are bad, suffering is bad, the Path to the cessation of suffering is good, etc...

It's a great start, the dharma and so on, but as we dig deeper that system breaks down, e.g. overcoming attachment to peaceful mental states, or the 4th historical Buddha himself being both enlightened and still very much having a self.

So I am for a "dual universe" perspective where on one hand all the stuff in the "good" list above is true. The dynamics of happiness and liberation as detailed in the dharma are true. Yet still in another parallel reality, we have the truth of suffering. Its essence will never change does not change. A person who attains enlightenment will still be a person (subject to suffering, dual). And actually nothing will ever change, in that universe, the "real" one, where everything is emptiness or interdependence. So what about the universe with independence? Specificly and most poignantly this Buddha versus that Buddha, but more mondainly you versus me? I think it will also remain, just like that.

Thoughts?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

dreambow
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby dreambow » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:46 am

Muni, In the video the female teacher says "Its stubbornness that doesn't want to take the teaching to heart" I'm not sure that statement is true. Its more likely that 5 senses draw us out to enjoy the world, creating a veil, concealing the
truth or awakening. Silence or dropping thoughts is the only correct or true indication forward and even that can't be
said with certainty.

muni
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby muni » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:46 am

I try to understand and then remembered this https://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/1429/th ... ne-of-two/ but this is not what you are pointing to and so I come again by Bodhichitta. And then I remember these words: compassion means that you will have to suffer in order to help. I found these words very strange, since Buddhism is to erase suffering! But then there is also said that the suffer is not overwhelming, as awareness is not lost in it. Ah.

When I look to the Masters, always and always ‘acting’ impartially for the welfare of all of us, then we as well will have to step in their footsteps so to speak. It is not necessary for them to fall back into dream state in order to help where possible. This example of the poor little one is obvious but others not so:
http://www.lifedaily.com/good-samaritan ... rbage-bag/ It cannot be necessary to fall back in dream to know the suffering of all and try to do something with liberating Dharma or any daily need as well. ( dependence-emptiness)
Last edited by muni on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

muni
Posts: 4139
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: TranscendIng self

Postby muni » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:52 am

Muni, In the video the female teacher says "Its stubbornness that doesn't want to take the teaching to heart" I'm not sure that statement is true. Its more likely that 5 senses draw us out to enjoy the world, creating a veil, concealing the
truth or awakening.


Thank you, dreambow. This proves I didn't listen very carefully since I missed it. Surrender that habitual grasping/clinging can be blocked by stubborness and so the teaching are not applied, by which the 5 senses continue to "enjoy" . But I will listen again.

I listened. Thanks again.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: TranscendIng self

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:13 am

to experience happiness without needing it,
to experience sadness without dwelling in it.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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