Question about processes

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Bakmoon
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:09 pm

rachmiel wrote:Is there no solace in Buddhism ... no "happily ever after" ... not even any ground on which to firmly plant your feet?

(Sorry to get a bit off track, but questions like this matter to me.)
There isn't any substance to hold onto, but there isn't some sort of all consuming nothingness either. This is why some Madhyamaka philosophers emphasize a distinction between the actual ultimate (the actual nature of reality that is completely beyond all concepts and elaborations) and the approximate ultimate (trying to approximate the ultimate by describing it as a negation).

Madhyamaka uses negation as a tool to clear away our mistaken concepts. However, once this has been done, negation has done its job and is set aside.

Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:07 pm

Wayfarer wrote:... the notion that 'awakening is a temporary experience' doesn't actually square with the teachings ...
Since temporary and eternal are simply ideas, awakening has nothing to do with either.
What I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter

Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:08 pm

Bakmoon wrote:... Madhyamaka philosophers emphasize a distinction between the actual ultimate (the actual nature of reality that is completely beyond all concepts and elaborations) and the approximate ultimate (trying to approximate the ultimate by describing it as a negation).

Madhyamaka uses negation as a tool to clear away our mistaken concepts. However, once this has been done, negation has done its job and is set aside.
Exactly, bravo.
What I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter

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Wayfarer
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Awful avatar, if you don't mind me saying.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Wayfarer wrote:Awful avatar, if you don't mind me saying.
That is incidental.
What I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter

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Rick
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Rick » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:51 pm

One of my favorite things about a retreat I went to a few years ago was driving home from an all-day intense session and watching a horror movie (or two) at night. I had no trouble integrating the two experiences.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Penor
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Penor » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:05 am

Nu processes do you mean dependent origination?
http://www.wisdompubs.org/blog/201601/d ... nt-arising

White Lotus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by White Lotus » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:53 pm

Karma, all views ideas and concepts are expressions of emptiness. Should they be avoided? Can they be avoided? :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Rick
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Rick » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:32 pm

I experience what-is as a series of ephemeral objects that arise and fall in consciousness: thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations, sensory perceptions, emotions, etc. So does an enlightened person. The difference is that I, via memory and thought, connect these discontinuous ephemeral objects into a continuous persistent story — I, the world, the flow of time, the process — that I take to be the true nature of reality, whereas the enlightened person doesn't.

?
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muni
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Re: Question about processes

Post by muni » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:18 pm

rachmiel wrote:I experience what-is as a series of ephemeral objects that arise and fall in consciousness: thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations, sensory perceptions, emotions, etc. So does an enlightened person. The difference is that I, via memory and thought, connect these discontinuous ephemeral objects into a continuous persistent story — I, the world, the flow of time, the process — that I take to be the true nature of reality, whereas the enlightened person doesn't.

?
Wonderful, moments like beads without thread?
*Look into the mirror of your mind* Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Astus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Astus » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:25 am

rachmiel wrote:The difference is that I, via memory and thought, connect these discontinuous ephemeral objects into a continuous persistent story — I, the world, the flow of time, the process — that I take to be the true nature of reality, whereas the enlightened person doesn't.
The difference is in identification, in attachment. If an enlightened person could not comprehend processes that would mean he'd be unable to function as a living being. The contemplation of rise and fall and of momentariness are meant to eliminate the false assumptions of permanence.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Rick
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Rick » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:02 pm

Astus wrote:
rachmiel wrote:The difference is that I, via memory and thought, connect these discontinuous ephemeral objects into a continuous persistent story — I, the world, the flow of time, the process — that I take to be the true nature of reality, whereas the enlightened person doesn't.
The difference is in identification, in attachment.
It pretty much always comes down to attachment (grasping/aversion) doesn't it?

Nature attaches. Atoms bond. But when it's time to un-bond, there's no trail of sorrow/regret left behind. (Though a panpsychist might say that the consciousness of an atom experiences an atom-ic sorrow at the ending of a bond? ;-) )
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by White Lotus » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:08 pm

Detachment: you have always been perfectly detached Rachmiel. Only emptiness. Theres nothing to attach to. You have always had perfect compassion because compassion is emptiness. Only emptiness. You have always been a master of non abiding because there is nothing to abide in or as. Only emptiness. It all comes down to emptiness. You have always been detached; whether or not you know it. There's no special requirement or attainment needed, but it helps if you can appreciate emptiness. :)

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Astus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Astus » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:28 pm

rachmiel wrote:It pretty much always comes down to attachment (grasping/aversion) doesn't it?
"The Supreme Way is difficult
Only for those who pick and choose.
Simply let go of love and hate;
The Way will fully reveal itself."

(Trust In Mind)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Rick
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Rick » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:25 pm

Astus wrote:Simply let go of love and hate;
The Way will fully reveal itself.
Simply ... Simply!

My entire life, 10,000 times a day, I have chosen love or hate (kindness or anger, pleasure or pain, etc.) depending on what I wanted at the moment.

10,000 times a day for however many days I have been alive ... over and over and over and over ... to say that the habit of NOT letting go of love and hate is deeply ingrained is like saying the habit of breathing is deeply ingrained.

It takes 10 seconds to understand the logic behind not getting caught in preferring this vs. that. It takes years, decades, lives to live this understanding.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Astus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Astus » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:37 pm

rachmiel wrote:It takes 10 seconds to understand the logic behind not getting caught in preferring this vs. that. It takes years, decades, lives to live this understanding.
Fortunately there is a path to do that.

As for how attachment is the problem: Kotthita Sutta, Marapasa Sutta
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

White Lotus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by White Lotus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:35 pm

We let go of love and hate in the gradual path. But in emptiness there is actually no love or hate from the very beginning. There is no saint nor sinner. But "only" for practical reasons we live as though there were sin and holiness. You'r hate Rachmiel is emptiness. Its merely appearance. An impermanent arising: not real. If it troubles you there will need to be a renunciation of love as well. Love and hate are both intercausal. You cant have one without the other. Tom.

muni
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Re: Question about processes

Post by muni » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:50 pm

:namaste:

Isn’t there Love which opposes the dreaming love/hatred? Love which is Wisdom? Unconditional Love by Awakening?
Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche: it is like ‘being in love with all and everything*’. How we cannot wish all of us are 'in love with all and everything'?!

Instead we are like crazy paper boats, struggling on the huge waves of our own aversion-attachment. Waves as processes in dream, holding the conditioned mind ( with what we identify) in its' grip of suffering/harm.

*metaphor by lack of possibility to express.
*Look into the mirror of your mind* Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Rick
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Re: Question about processes

Post by Rick » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:14 pm

muni wrote:Instead we are like crazy paper boats, struggling on the huge waves of our own aversion-attachment.
I feel you, brother.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Question about processes

Post by White Lotus » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:00 pm

:namaste: you may not always feel compassion, but you are the embodiment of emptiness/compassion. We all are. That little paper boat is the ocean on which it floats. It always has been. HHDL has to struggle with unhelpful emotions too. I think however that the Buddha had overcome negative emotions. Is that necessary? Perhaps only for an easier life. Tom.

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