Inherent Existence?
Inherent Existence?
Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
Re: Inherent Existence?
You ain't gonna find any because it doesn't exist!Tirisilex wrote:Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Inherent Existence?
Self-existence, or beings/things/selves existing on themselves or permanent independent self/selves. That idea of self/selves on themselves ( not dependent on parts, not dependent on perception but being by themselves so with their characteristics...)is a strong grounded believed concept by our habitual confusion.
It’s like Grigoris says, you will not find it. One can say a negation of a nonexistence, what is an impossible job for the habitual/conceptual mind.
We use to say I am a monk, a teacher, an accountant, a minister, a nurse, sister, brother……and identify with that. But this has no inherent existence, no self on itself with characteristics and so these are only like passing cloths, which are shaken off one moment. Even we have no inherent existence, there are karma and effects and these effects cannot be shaken off. Therefore dependent on karma, so is/will be the effects and experiences of life/next life. It is like a running movie, not knowing the producer, which is our confused idea of self/selves. To be liberated of this idea of inherent self we follow the example of enlightened Nature.
We could say there is actually no inherently bad human/being or inherently good human/being, but there can be activity, whether by our confusion or awaken.
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/dalai2.html
http://tsoknyirinpoche.bridgetechnology ... -part-1-2/
It’s like Grigoris says, you will not find it. One can say a negation of a nonexistence, what is an impossible job for the habitual/conceptual mind.
We use to say I am a monk, a teacher, an accountant, a minister, a nurse, sister, brother……and identify with that. But this has no inherent existence, no self on itself with characteristics and so these are only like passing cloths, which are shaken off one moment. Even we have no inherent existence, there are karma and effects and these effects cannot be shaken off. Therefore dependent on karma, so is/will be the effects and experiences of life/next life. It is like a running movie, not knowing the producer, which is our confused idea of self/selves. To be liberated of this idea of inherent self we follow the example of enlightened Nature.
We could say there is actually no inherently bad human/being or inherently good human/being, but there can be activity, whether by our confusion or awaken.
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/dalai2.html
http://tsoknyirinpoche.bridgetechnology ... -part-1-2/
Re: Inherent Existence?
Inherent existence refers to the false idea that any entity can exist independently. Every characteristic defining any entity arises dependently from things that are not the thing being identified.
In other words, there is no thing-in-itself to which characteristics can inhere.
In other words, there is no thing-in-itself to which characteristics can inhere.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Re: Inherent Existence?
Anything that exists inherently would not involve change. This is the rule of thumb . Created things or objects cannot inherently exist because that would involve change. A few examples of inherent existence would be energy (neither can it be created nor destroyed), emptiness, space, dependent nature, nibbana.Tirisilex wrote:Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
~ Ignorance triumphs when wise men do nothing ~
Re: Inherent Existence?
If nibbana exists inherently then how can it be attained?takso wrote:Anything that exists inherently would not involve change. This is the rule of thumb . Created things or objects cannot inherently exist because that would involve change. A few examples of inherent existence would be energy (neither can it be created nor destroyed), emptiness, space, dependent nature, nibbana.Tirisilex wrote:Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
If I have a full cup and I empty it's contents is space not created?
Emptiness is a phenomenon?
Ad nauseum...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Inherent Existence?
If you empty a full cup you don't create space in the cup, you're moving things around. If you do it in a gravity well with an atmosphere, then you only end up replacing the liquid with atmosphere ie it is still not empty.
From a Lotus perspective, perhaps enlightenment is not attained but may be increasingly expressed through the practice ie it is and was always there but obscured.
I have the impression trying to pin this kind of thing down is like trying to nail jello to a tree. Perhaps a different method might work more easily.
From a Lotus perspective, perhaps enlightenment is not attained but may be increasingly expressed through the practice ie it is and was always there but obscured.
I have the impression trying to pin this kind of thing down is like trying to nail jello to a tree. Perhaps a different method might work more easily.
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Re: Inherent Existence?
If emptiness were inherently existent it would be a projection, and so an illusion, and so not empty...takso wrote:Anything that exists inherently would not involve change. This is the rule of thumb . Created things or objects cannot inherently exist because that would involve change. A few examples of inherent existence would be energy (neither can it be created nor destroyed), emptiness, space, dependent nature, nibbana.Tirisilex wrote:Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
The same for your concept of nirvana, that nirvana would be a mirage.
Re: Inherent Existence?
So the space is already there?narhwal90 wrote:If you empty a full cup you don't create space in the cup, you're moving things around. If you do it in a gravity well with an atmosphere, then you only end up replacing the liquid with atmosphere ie it is still not empty.
If you are already enlightened then there is no need to be enlightened.From a Lotus perspective, perhaps enlightenment is not attained but may be increasingly expressed through the practice ie it is and was always there but obscured.
Indeed!I have the impression trying to pin this kind of thing down is like trying to nail jello to a tree.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Inherent Existence?
In the sense of described volume, but then theres the problematic aspect of space in the subatomic sense regardless of whats in the cup, and in relation to the cup itself.. but playing this game gets a bit beside the point.So the space is already there?narhwal90 wrote:If you empty a full cup you don't create space in the cup, you're moving things around. If you do it in a gravity well with an atmosphere, then you only end up replacing the liquid with atmosphere ie it is still not empty.
I agree. I think the issue at hand is more about its individual expression.If you are already enlightened then there is no need to be enlightened.From a Lotus perspective, perhaps enlightenment is not attained but may be increasingly expressed through the practice ie it is and was always there but obscured.
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Re: Inherent Existence?
takso wrote:Anything that exists inherently would not involve change. This is the rule of thumb . Created things or objects cannot inherently exist because that would involve change. A few examples of inherent existence would be energy (neither can it be created nor destroyed), emptiness, space, dependent nature, nibbana.Tirisilex wrote:Inherent existence.. what is it? I keep reading Dictionaries but they arent clearing it up for me.. Can someone give me examples of what Inherent existence is?
All dependent, conditioned phenomena rely on causes and conditions, and therefore cannot be said to be "existent." "Bhava" is the Sanskrit word for "being" or "worldly existence." To exist means to have ontological status, to be "real."
"Inherent existence" is "Svabhava" in Sanskrit, or "Own Being," "Essential Being," "Intrinsic Being." It is, in some sense, a subset or species of "Bhava," but it is a sort of conceptual elaboration which suggests an essence or unchanging kernel of identity in each phenomenon. This essence is suggested to "inhere" in each phenomenon. We could say it is similar to the idea of a "soul" or essential, unchanging kernel of individuals, in many respects. It is, in reality, merely an idea, an intellectualization or conceptualization of ontological status of appearing phenomena.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Inherent Existence?
It is true that if something were inherently existent, it would not change. However, you cannot flip that around to say that if something doesn't change, it is inherently real. That is bad logic.takso wrote:Anything that exists inherently would not involve change. This is the rule of thumb . Created things or objects cannot inherently exist because that would involve change. A few examples of inherent existence would be energy (neither can it be created nor destroyed), emptiness, space, dependent nature, nibbana.
Re: Inherent Existence?
What is existence?
We do know things and happenings exist because it can be known and felt by our senses. And our minds interpret event or happening as a condition that one has to go through, to persevere with, to soldier on with, to carry on with or to undertake with, inevitably. Since things and happenings have existed long before we have a slightest opportunity to recognise and understand it well, we are bound to suffer ignorantly.
But what is existence about? What exists is defined as that which can be known. If it cannot be known by the mind, then it does not exist. And conventionally, things can exist as in fallacy or in reality. But ultimately, things do not exist in the ways that concepts and language imply they do. Things would only ‘exist’ as in deepest facts i.e. it is beyond mind and beyond concepts and words in the sense that it is beyond our usual ways of perceiving things. Language and conception only imply that things exist as in conventional reality i.e. distinct manners such as wise person, dumb person, saint, devil, etc. - in such well-defined and independent categories. And perceiving ultimate reality is seeing that things do not exist in these fantasised, impossible ways, in black and white categories.
The Two Sides of Truth
There are two sides of truth in existence i.e. conventional truth and ultimate truth. When addressing a problem, in the first place, we need to ensure whether our point of view is from a conventional or an ultimate perspective.
For example, from a conventional perspective, we would agree that duality or multiplicity does exist. Therefore, nibbāna is a phenomenon because we are speaking as a subject on the other side of the object or matter. In other words, the subject is pondering on the object or matter - phenomenon arises. However, from an ultimate perspective, we would then agree that no duality or multiplicity arises. Therefore, nibbāna is not a phenomenon (also applies on all other things) because there is no subject to ponder on the object or matter. In other words, no phenomenon arises if we speak from an ultimate perspective.
Conventional truth is a subjective and a relative truth. This means the truth orientation is dependent on the observer (i.e. the subject’s mind) to provide the description, definition, recognition, valuation, etc. on the other side of the object or matter. And the truth conclusion varies among different observers or minds.
Energy and Space
‘Energy is space in tango, space is energy in play.’ In a way, space is merely an expression for the existence of energy i.e. no energy in play, no space arising. As scientists have discovered, energy can neither be created nor be destroyed and it is ever transforming and changing all the time. The sum of all energies in a system is a constant or never changes.
So is energy a variable or a constant element? Paradoxically, energy corresponds well to both of these elements. In fact, every subject matter can be viewed in two different ways and each way is very closely related with one another although they seem different (i.e. the two sides of the same coin). Therefore, energy is a constant element on one perspective and concurrently, it is a variable element on another perspective. By understanding well and observing thoroughly into the characteristics of energy, one could gain insight into Mother Nature and its orientation.
In other words, energy is a quality that is universal i.e. it is inherent existing and dependent arising concurrently. The alternate expression for energy is emptiness. When one sees into energy, one sees into emptiness; when one sees into emptiness, one sees into energy. This is the rationale for the saying, ‘Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.’ The principle in effect: seeing into form is seeing into matter, seeing into matter is seeing into energy and seeing into energy is seeing into emptiness. And emptiness is a necessary prerequisite for any objects to exist; without it, the object would be impossible.
In a way, both emptiness and the energy are the fundamental qualities of Mother Nature because every single thing or happening would involve with it, without exception. On one hand, the Mother Nature would bear with the conditions of beginning and ending and on the other hand, it would bear with the conditions of beginning-less and end-less. In other words, Mother Nature is a system that is universal i.e. it is inherent existing and dependent arising concurrently.
We do know things and happenings exist because it can be known and felt by our senses. And our minds interpret event or happening as a condition that one has to go through, to persevere with, to soldier on with, to carry on with or to undertake with, inevitably. Since things and happenings have existed long before we have a slightest opportunity to recognise and understand it well, we are bound to suffer ignorantly.
But what is existence about? What exists is defined as that which can be known. If it cannot be known by the mind, then it does not exist. And conventionally, things can exist as in fallacy or in reality. But ultimately, things do not exist in the ways that concepts and language imply they do. Things would only ‘exist’ as in deepest facts i.e. it is beyond mind and beyond concepts and words in the sense that it is beyond our usual ways of perceiving things. Language and conception only imply that things exist as in conventional reality i.e. distinct manners such as wise person, dumb person, saint, devil, etc. - in such well-defined and independent categories. And perceiving ultimate reality is seeing that things do not exist in these fantasised, impossible ways, in black and white categories.
The Two Sides of Truth
There are two sides of truth in existence i.e. conventional truth and ultimate truth. When addressing a problem, in the first place, we need to ensure whether our point of view is from a conventional or an ultimate perspective.
For example, from a conventional perspective, we would agree that duality or multiplicity does exist. Therefore, nibbāna is a phenomenon because we are speaking as a subject on the other side of the object or matter. In other words, the subject is pondering on the object or matter - phenomenon arises. However, from an ultimate perspective, we would then agree that no duality or multiplicity arises. Therefore, nibbāna is not a phenomenon (also applies on all other things) because there is no subject to ponder on the object or matter. In other words, no phenomenon arises if we speak from an ultimate perspective.
Conventional truth is a subjective and a relative truth. This means the truth orientation is dependent on the observer (i.e. the subject’s mind) to provide the description, definition, recognition, valuation, etc. on the other side of the object or matter. And the truth conclusion varies among different observers or minds.
Energy and Space
‘Energy is space in tango, space is energy in play.’ In a way, space is merely an expression for the existence of energy i.e. no energy in play, no space arising. As scientists have discovered, energy can neither be created nor be destroyed and it is ever transforming and changing all the time. The sum of all energies in a system is a constant or never changes.
So is energy a variable or a constant element? Paradoxically, energy corresponds well to both of these elements. In fact, every subject matter can be viewed in two different ways and each way is very closely related with one another although they seem different (i.e. the two sides of the same coin). Therefore, energy is a constant element on one perspective and concurrently, it is a variable element on another perspective. By understanding well and observing thoroughly into the characteristics of energy, one could gain insight into Mother Nature and its orientation.
In other words, energy is a quality that is universal i.e. it is inherent existing and dependent arising concurrently. The alternate expression for energy is emptiness. When one sees into energy, one sees into emptiness; when one sees into emptiness, one sees into energy. This is the rationale for the saying, ‘Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.’ The principle in effect: seeing into form is seeing into matter, seeing into matter is seeing into energy and seeing into energy is seeing into emptiness. And emptiness is a necessary prerequisite for any objects to exist; without it, the object would be impossible.
In a way, both emptiness and the energy are the fundamental qualities of Mother Nature because every single thing or happening would involve with it, without exception. On one hand, the Mother Nature would bear with the conditions of beginning and ending and on the other hand, it would bear with the conditions of beginning-less and end-less. In other words, Mother Nature is a system that is universal i.e. it is inherent existing and dependent arising concurrently.
~ Ignorance triumphs when wise men do nothing ~
Re: Inherent Existence?
^^^Takso-ism at its finest^^
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde