Exchange self-centered perspective for other-centric?

[tomschwarz]

HellIo brothers and sisters,

Shantideva wrote, "Bodhisattvas way of life",

Chpt 8, vs 155. Countless eons have passed away while you sought your own benefit. With this great toil you have gained only suffering"

....then regarding the opposite, seeking benefits for others... verse 157:

"if indeed you had in former times embraced this work and undertaken it, you could not still be lacking in the perfect bliss of buddhahood"

And his holiness the dalai lama commented on this, "this is very true, for example, in the case of ourselves, if we had had the opportunity to be in the presence of the historical Buddha, and as a result, if we had taken this turn from self cherrishment to othercherrishment, by now, certainly our situation would have been very different, and definitely a much better one."

Is this true? No? If yes, then why do we not now replace the self-cherrishment with othercherrishment ? What are the advantages of self cherrishment that is so prevalent here on this forum, in my home, at my work, on streets and trains and cars and airplanes and stores?

[Grigoris]

HellIo brothers and sisters,

Shantideva wrote, "Bodhisattvas way of life",

Chpt 8, vs 155. Countless eons have passed away while you sought your own benefit. With this great toil you have gained only suffering"

....then regarding the opposite, seeking benefits for others... verse 157:

"if indeed you had in former times embraced this work and undertaken it, you could not still be lacking in the perfect bliss of buddhahood"

And his holiness the dalai lama commented on this, "this is very true, for example, in the case of ourselves, if we had had the opportunity to be in the presence of the historical Buddha, and as a result, if we had taken this turn from self cherrishment to othercherrishment, by now, certainly our situation would have been very different, and definitely a much better one."

Is this true? No? If yes, then why do we not now replace the self-cherrishment with othercherrishment ? What are the advantages of self cherrishment that is so prevalent here on this forum, in my home, at my work, on streets and trains and cars and airplanes and stores?

There is no advantage, there is a perceived advantage which is just as much projection as it is reality.

[Grigoris]

(49) As it’s true what I’ve said about self-centered interest, I recognize clearly my enemy now. I recognize clearly the bandit who plunders, the liar who lures by pretending he’s part of me; oh what relief that I’ve conquered this doubt!

(50) And so Yamantaka, spin round with great power the wheel of sharp weapons of good actions now. Three times turn it round, [14] in your wrathful-like aspect your legs set apart for the two grades of truth, with your eyes blazing open for wisdom and means.

(51) Baring your fangs of the four great opponents, [15] devour the foe – our cruel selfish concern! With your powerful mantra [16] of cherishing others, demolish this enemy lurking within!

(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle, we are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done returning upon us; we are out of control. This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us, deceiving ourselves and all others as well capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka, summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves! Trample him, trample him, dance on the head of this treacherous concept of selfish concern! Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

(54) Hum! Hum! Show all your powers, O mighty protector. Dza! Dza! Tie up this enemy; do not let him loose. P'at! P’at! [17] Set us free by your might, O great Lord over Death. Cut! Cut! Break the knot of self-interest that binds us inside.

(55) Appear Yamantaka, O wrathful protector; I have further entreaties to make of you still. This sack of five poisons, [18] mistakes and delusion drags us down in the quicksand of life’s daily toil. Cut it off, cut it off, rip it to shreds!

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... -rendering
“Theg-pa chen-po'i blo-sbyong mtshon-cha 'khor-lo” (The Wheel of Sharp Weapons) by Dharmarakshita

[Anders]

Is this true? No? If yes, then why do we not now replace the self-cherrishment with othercherrishment ? What are the advantages of self cherrishment that is so prevalent here on this forum, in my home, at my work, on streets and trains and cars and airplanes and stores?

To be able to look after yourself properly, to effect change and growth in the one person you know you can help.

• There was once a pair of jugglers who performed their acrobatic feats on a bamboo pole. One day the master said to his apprentice: "Now get on my shoulders and climb up the bamboo pole." When the apprentice had done so, the master said: "Now protect me well and I shall protect you! By protecting and watching each other in that way, we shall be able to show our skill, make a good profit and safely get down from the bamboo pole." But the apprentice said: "Not so, master! You, O master, should protect yourself, and I too shall protect myself. Thus self-protected and self-guarded we shall safely do our feats."
  
  This is the right way," said the Blessed One and spoke further as follows:
  
  "It is just as the apprentice said: 'I shall protect myself' — in that way the foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana) should be practiced. 'I shall protect others' — in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. Protecting oneself, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.
  
  "And how does one, in protecting oneself, protect others? By the repeated and frequent practice of meditation (asevanaya bhavanaya bahulikammena).
  
  "And how does one, in protecting others, protect oneself? By patience and forbearance, by a non-violent and harmless life, by loving kindness and compassion."

[Natan]

Is this true? No? If yes, then why do we not now replace the self-cherrishment with othercherrishment ? What are the advantages of self cherrishment that is so prevalent here on this forum, in my home, at my work, on streets and trains and cars and airplanes and stores?

To be able to look after yourself properly, to effect change and growth in the one person you know you can help.

• There was once a pair of jugglers who performed their acrobatic feats on a bamboo pole. One day the master said to his apprentice: "Now get on my shoulders and climb up the bamboo pole." When the apprentice had done so, the master said: "Now protect me well and I shall protect you! By protecting and watching each other in that way, we shall be able to show our skill, make a good profit and safely get down from the bamboo pole." But the apprentice said: "Not so, master! You, O master, should protect yourself, and I too shall protect myself. Thus self-protected and self-guarded we shall safely do our feats."
  
  This is the right way," said the Blessed One and spoke further as follows:
  
  "It is just as the apprentice said: 'I shall protect myself' — in that way the foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana) should be practiced. 'I shall protect others' — in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. Protecting oneself, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.
  
  "And how does one, in protecting oneself, protect others? By the repeated and frequent practice of meditation (asevanaya bhavanaya bahulikammena).
  
  "And how does one, in protecting others, protect oneself? By patience and forbearance, by a non-violent and harmless life, by loving kindness and compassion."

Sticky idea bc if you really want to be prepared for service you have to look after yourself well. Still it's the first idea of how can help others thatngets you there.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Ironically, one of the best ways to help others is to stop trying to fix them. Also necessary if you want to have an "other centric" perspective, you have to drop your narrative about what you think they need, and actually find out what they need.

What are the advantages of self cherrishment that is so prevalent here on this forum, in my home, at my work, on streets and trains and cars and airplanes and stores?

If it appears that self-cherishing is prevalent everywhere but in you, isn't that an indication of where to start?

[tomschwarz]

(49) As it’s true what I’ve said about self-centered interest, I recognize clearly my enemy now. I recognize clearly the bandit who plunders, the liar who lures by pretending he’s part of me; oh what relief that I’ve conquered this doubt!

(50) And so Yamantaka, spin round with great power the wheel of sharp weapons of good actions now. Three times turn it round, [14] in your wrathful-like aspect your legs set apart for the two grades of truth, with your eyes blazing open for wisdom and means.

(51) Baring your fangs of the four great opponents, [15] devour the foe – our cruel selfish concern! With your powerful mantra [16] of cherishing others, demolish this enemy lurking within!

(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle, we are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done returning upon us; we are out of control. This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us, deceiving ourselves and all others as well capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka, summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves! Trample him, trample him, dance on the head of this treacherous concept of selfish concern! Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

(54) Hum! Hum! Show all your powers, O mighty protector. Dza! Dza! Tie up this enemy; do not let him loose. P'at! P’at! [17] Set us free by your might, O great Lord over Death. Cut! Cut! Break the knot of self-interest that binds us inside.

(55) Appear Yamantaka, O wrathful protector; I have further entreaties to make of you still. This sack of five poisons, [18] mistakes and delusion drags us down in the quicksand of life’s daily toil. Cut it off, cut it off, rip it to shreds!

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... -rendering
“Theg-pa chen-po'i blo-sbyong mtshon-cha 'khor-lo” (The Wheel of Sharp Weapons) by Dharmarakshita

AWESOME Dharma Rock!!!! Unreal, never read that.....
In Buddhism we learn, regarding Karmic RETRIBUTION, that our first thought when observing this must always be COMPASSION!!!! Too much coffee today, but that is OKKK. ...but for those who are suffering NOW and DEEPLY, listen to this DHARMAROCK quoted above by HERR GRIGORIS and enjoy FREEDOM FROM ALL THREE TYPES OF SUFFERING!!!!!°


"Depressed and forlorn, when we feel mental anguish, this is the wheel of sharp weapons returning full circle upon us from wrongs we have done. "


"All of our sufferings derive from our habits of selfish delusions we heed and act out. As all of us share in this tragic misfortune, which stems from our narrow and self-centered ways, we must take all our sufferings and the miseries of others and smother our wishes of selfish concern."

[tomschwarz]

"And how does one, in protecting oneself, protect others? By the repeated and frequent practice of meditation (asevanaya bhavanaya bahulikammena).

"And how does one, in protecting others, protect oneself? By patience and forbearance, by a non-violent and harmless life, by loving kindness and compassion."

+1 for creativity ))). ....the question is why is the self centered attitude so common on this forum and in me (thanks jd) and in everywhere else in my experience, when it appears to lead to suffering?

In this sutra what is actually being suggested is meditation as well as loving kindness, compassion and so on. Those things directly destroy/counteract self centered attitude. So I think the acrobat analogy was not supporting any self centered perspective. More that one must practice Buddhism seriously themselves.

[muni]

Whether speak is to bore others or speak is to free; the latter is the result of giving up self-centeredness and so self-cherishing. I should say check it in experience, then the answer is more clear, for example; “I want this and not them” is grasping to self with striving to satisfaction and resulting in some temporary false satisfaction and too often in frustration, malcontent, irritation and so on. But I may not speak about the forum, since I saved it few days from my great contributions, while they are the best. Me first.

One may think to cherish oneself and ones' loved ones only - is making strong, but it isn't. At least in my deluded experiences it isn't! It makes weak, is locking one up on a self-made isle! The opposite makes strong and powerful, use energy for all, let go self- centerdeness. No one should believe this, check it.

Since in experience it becomes clear that by cherishing others, the extremes fade and another kind of satisfaction “arises” which has no grasping in it but is relaxing and freeing. Ah. Opening the heart, breaking the wall of selfprotection.

On my walk last days I saw: change the love of power in the power of love. Useless to write this? No Buddhism? I don't care.

[Anonymous X]

I want to be more loving. I want to be more kind. I want to be more rich. I want to have success. Is it not the same 'I' that wants all of these things? Are there two 'I's'? If there is no 'I' can there an 'other'? All of this should be contemplated.

[tomschwarz]

Thanks muni

An-ex, good point about inspecting language and understanding it's meanings. Add to that, if someone is verbose and says the same idea 3 times their surely speaking to themselves (but not always).

About the cardinality of "i", rewind 100 million years... you may find many many I's. Or if that is too large a leap of faith, just look at 10 years of your life, clearly we have changed and so there are different and conflicting i's, some we may now consider obsolete. But if you really want to see today some i's writhing on a plate like worms, just have a look in your dreams and compare that to your waking life....

So we use this amazing path (4th noble truth of Buddhism) to rid ourselves of self centered perspective. It's amazing to me how the whole thing works with meditation, ethics and wisdom. If you are interested in the same, and you have the style of taking on a bit more,

...please read over this https://www.lionsroar.com/waking-up-fro ... -lifetime/

[Virgo]

Ironically, one of the best ways to help others is to stop trying to fix them. Also necessary if you want to have an "other centric" perspective, you have to drop your narrative about what you think they need, and actually find out what they need.

Great post.

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu.

Kevin

[gescom]

And his holiness the dalai lama commented on this, "this is very true, for example, in the case of ourselves, if we had had the opportunity to be in the presence of the historical Buddha, and as a result, if we had taken this turn from self cherrishment to othercherrishment, by now, certainly our situation would have been very different, and definitely a much better one."

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but if His Holiness said that then he is speaking from his own experience.

Refer to the following video at 4:10

phpBB [video]

...someone raised the question to His Holiness. You refer to yourself as a simple Buddhist monk, no realisation and all that, but sometimes we would really like to be inspired by hearing about your actual realisation. Would you be willing to be a bit more candid?

And what I heard, this is second hand, but what I heard was "well you have a point... well in that case I can remember being with the Buddha".

[muni]

...please read over this https://www.lionsroar.com/waking-up-fro ... -lifetime/

One way to understand the Buddha’s teachings is that we’re actually the most spiritually awake in deep dreamless sleep and the most asleep in so-called waking reality. Unfortunately, most of us have got it completely backward.

Many thanks.

"The external environment is called true suffering because sentient beings’ afflictions and actions influenced its creation and evolution. Since all sentient beings within our world enjoy or use the things within it, they individually, as well as collectively, contributed to its coming into existence."

Enlightened Nature for sure, knowing all to be dreamlike, then genuine impartial care is, a care which is certainly absent by self-cherishing due to lost in stream of (dualistic) thoughts, lost in the idea of solid/independent things/ones.

[tomschwarz]

And his holiness the dalai lama commented on this, "this is very true, for example, in the case of ourselves, if we had had the opportunity to be in the presence of the historical Buddha, and as a result, if we had taken this turn from self cherrishment to othercherrishment, by now, certainly our situation would have been very different, and definitely a much better one."

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but if His Holiness said that then he is speaking from his own experience.

Refer to the following video at 4:10

phpBB [video]

...someone raised the question to His Holiness. You refer to yourself as a simple Buddhist monk, no realisation and all that, but sometimes we would really like to be inspired by hearing about your actual realisation. Would you be willing to be a bit more candid?

And what I heard, this is second hand, but what I heard was "well you have a point... well in that case I can remember being with the Buddha".

Thank you gescom, never heard this before. And I can not imagine his holiness saying this to a large audience in Australia. Anyone have a video or audio recording of his holiness the dalai lama talking about past life experiences? I have 0. Here is another reference from Wisconsin (usa) http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapte ... past-lives

But I don't believe it. And I don't believe he said it. But it would not be the first time I was wrong on this forum ))). So someone please send a link... ...until then, here is his holiness saying to opposite (6:30) https://youtu.be/8Zpf1DdArek

I do not believe that his holinessis being duplicitous. Do you? His holiness simplifies things, welcomes foreign metaphors (heaven he'll etc ) but he is never duplicitous as far as I know. That would be a violation of right speech. No? Granted if he did have these experiences, his holiness might not want to talk about them again and again and he might think (enter skillful means) that communication of such things could alienate much of his audience....

And the original quote from my initial post here 1:32:00
http://www.lamrim.com/archive/misc/mp3/ ... pter_8.mp3

[muni]

Many years ago, maybe 20 or so, His Holiness said when he was asked if he had realized Bodhichitta: we will see at death. Remembering these words, which were like more than just a humble answer, it was teaching the importance of this life, not to waste it, and even difficult, to practice while not forgetting “the moment of death”. ( how much moments I wasted!)

Sometimes I use to contemplate on death. This is not something to be afraid for, but present delusions and so actions by confused state, these are perhaps the ones to be afraid for, as being a slave of mind.

Lovely to hear His Holiness, he always reminds so clearly what is important.

Selfcenteredness is the prison door, not allowing freedom.