The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Dharma Flower
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The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

How concerned should we be over whether our teacher likes us or not? What if a teacher and a disciple don't like each other as people? Can it still be a beneficial relationship? Can a Dharma relationship transcend personal likes and dislikes? I appreciate your help. :thanks:
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dechen Norbu »

I have a hard time seeing that working, especially because people holding the title of Dharma teachers should above all be examples of compassion. From the part of the student, I think its hard to be inspired by someone he doesn't like, let alone feel any measure of devotion.
We may prefer one teacher over another because of this or that feature, but disliking one's own Dharms teacher? In Vajrayana that would be beyond bad. It would be dangerous. Better to stick with a teacher we like.
Dharma Flower
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

Thank you for your response. I think we also need to question our likes and dislikes, as to whether they are motivated by our misconceptions of the other person or by our own insecurities.

For example, we might get the wrong message from something if we don't try to look at the bigger picture. If someone doesn't answer an email, for example, that doesn't mean they don't appreciate you. It depends on their situation.
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cky
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by cky »

Dharma Flower wrote:If someone doesn't answer an email, for example, that doesn't mean they don't appreciate you. It depends on their situation.
Not sure what your specific situation is, but remaining silent sometimes can be a powerful tool in communication.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

cky wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:If someone doesn't answer an email, for example, that doesn't mean they don't appreciate you. It depends on their situation.
Not sure what your specific situation is, but remaining silent sometimes can be a powerful tool in communication.
For sure. It was by silently holding up a flower that the Buddha made Mahākāśyapa attain enlightenment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
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Grigoris
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Grigoris »

Or it may just mean that the person is super busy.
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Dharma Flower
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

Grigoris wrote:Or it may just mean that the person is super busy.
Yes. Another way of reading too much into things is, for example, if the teacher looks at you a certain way, and one misinterprets it as disapproval.

If we put a teacher on too high of a pedestal, then we might see signs of disapproval that don't even really exist.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by tingdzin »

Some teachers are not too outgoing with any students until they know them well.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Malcolm »

Dharma Flower wrote:How concerned should we be over whether our teacher likes us or not? What if a teacher and a disciple don't like each other as people? Can it still be a beneficial relationship? Can a Dharma relationship transcend personal likes and dislikes? I appreciate your help. :thanks:
Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.
Arnoud
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.
Yes, but Dharma is connected to daily life. So, what if you disagree with their daily life choices or advice on your daily life? Is that guidance in the Dharma or just their opinion which is not related to Dharma?
If a teacher is truly realized, isn't it all Dharma? Or at least it should be, no? I think reconciling those--at times conflicting--views can be difficult.
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Virgo
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Virgo »

Arnoud wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.
Yes, but Dharma is connected to daily life. So, what if you disagree with their daily life choices or advice on your daily life? Is that guidance in the Dharma or just their opinion which is not related to Dharma?
If a teacher is truly realized, isn't it all Dharma? Or at least it should be, no? I think reconciling those--at times conflicting--views can be difficult.
The function of the teacher is to be your guide. People do not have to ask the teacher for advice on how to govern their personal affairs - who to marry, who to associate with, where to live, what jobs to do, and so on. Nor do people have to be around the teacher all the time, or participate in every activity that the community puts on. We should govern our own lives, trust ourselves, and look to the teacher on matters of Dharma.

The teacher is only human, so do not judge. We are all humans with flaws.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dechen Norbu »

I believe there's a saying about it that compares the teacher to a flame or something. Too close it will burn you. To far it won't warm you.

Anyway, it's better if you like your teacher. However, it helps a lot if you approach him in a healthy way, knowing what is his role and what isn't.

Sometimes there are people who tend to act in a very disturbing childish way when near their teacher. They seek attention and validation constantly, feel jealous of others closer to him, are always eager for a glimpse, a word, or any crumb of his attention and simply can't act in an adult, straightforward, no bs way with the teacher. It's a real shame when this happens.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Malcolm »

Arnoud wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.
Yes, but Dharma is connected to daily life. So, what if you disagree with their daily life choices or advice on your daily life? Is that guidance in the Dharma or just their opinion which is not related to Dharma?
If a teacher is truly realized, isn't it all Dharma? Or at least it should be, no? I think reconciling those--at times conflicting--views can be difficult.
One must use one's own wisdom too, when evaluating a teacher. Since they are not your friend, you can be more dispassionate in your analysis. Also, you are not practicing Dharma to please anyone.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

There are traditional ways giving qualities needed in the guru and disciple. Here is Je Tsongkhapa on a qualified disciple:
Aryadeva states in his Four Hundred Stanzas:

It is said that one who is nonpartisan, intelligent, and diligent
Is a vessel for listening to the teachings.
The good qualities of the instructor do not appear otherwise
Nor do those of fellow listeners.

Aryadeva says that one who is endowed with the three qualities is
suitable to listen to the teachings. He also says that if you have all
these qualities, the good qualities of one who instructs you in the
teachings will appear as good qualities, not as faults. In addition,
he says that to such a fully qualified person the good qualities of
fellow listeners will also appear as good qualities and not as faults.
And now the qualities of good guru:
The following is a description of a teacher who
instructs you in the stages on the paths of the three persons of different
capacities and guides you to the Mahayana, which is the path
to buddhahood. With respect to this, Maitreya says in his Ornament
for the Mahayana Sutras
:

Rely on a Mahayana teacher who is disciplined, serene, thoroughly
pacified;
Has good qualities surpassing those of the students; is energetic;
has a wealth of scriptural knowledge;
Possesses loving concern; has thorough knowledge of reality
and skill in instructing disciples;
And has abandoned dispiritedness.

Thus Maitreya says that a student must rely on a teacher who has
these ten qualities.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Dharma Flower
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

Before converting to Buddhism, I had negative experiences with religious leaders in other religious organizations. I've never really wanted to get too closely involved with a Buddhist priest because of it. Just non-toxic relationship is enough, and I think we have that.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

At the end of the year, my priest is moving back to his home country, as to inherit his father's temple. Maybe I should now learn non-attachment to him, rather than worrying if he likes me or not.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

I have been attending services at the same temple for two years without tithing membership. I need to come to grips with the fact that the priest doesn't owe me anything, and he will be moving away soon anyway.

It might be time to move on to a different temple or Buddhist center, as to avoid being too attached to a priest who is moving away soon anyway, and who has more important things in his life than me, who has never been an official, dues-paying temple member.

May you be happy and well. :namaste:
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by muni »

Can a Dharma relationship transcend personal likes and dislikes?
It is supposed to transcend these, I should say yes.

I think this depends as well from how the teacher is seen, whether as a human or a spiritual friend or a bodhisattva or buddha.
In our confusion and the wish to be freed of it, there is hope to have a nice relationship and the wish to seek protection by the Master and that is normal, I guess? To see there is such protection has its' function, if not trust is not easy. But it can be a very hard nut to bite ( due to own clinging to intrinsic existences), since a relationship with a Teacher is actually to make nature, how it appears-how it is, clear. And these so experienced hard nuts ( due to own confusion ) asks genuine faith in the guidance.

I saw once in a big assembly a man standing up from his chair and walking out when the teacher acted very wrathful for a short moment. Even the Teacher was not attacking "any one" at all, he couldn't bear that.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Arnoud »

Thanks Virgo and Malcolm.
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Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship

Post by Dharma Flower »

Is it possible to leave one Buddhist teacher for another or one tradition of Buddhism for another, without feeling guilt or bitter feelings about it afterward?
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