How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Sherab
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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Sherab » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:31 am

liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:09 am
Sherab wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:22 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:28 am
Be a second Malcolm Smith lol.
Great if you can do that but I never had that in mind. You just have to look for principles underlying the teachings by asking why the Buddha taught this or that, and see how the teachings of the Buddha are interconnected.
Might be better get armed to the teeth with regards to Buddhist debate ala Malcolm Smith style,as I suspect sometimes the debate might get confrontational.
That said,one seldom manage to persuade the other side in debate,only to demolish opposing argument.
Yes, it is impossible to persuade the other side in a debate because each side is deeply invested in his/her own position emotionally. Any change of position has to come from within. So what I tend to do is just give something for them to chew on. For example, I say that I can't be happy in heaven with God if I know that people suffering in hell below, especially those you loved. I may also provide logical conundrum for them to think about such as if God is self-sufficient, then he has no need to create the world. But the world exists, so..? Or if free will can result in man on earth to go against God's will, it is also possible for those who go to heaven to also go against God's will. If those in heaven do not go against God's will even if they can, why is it that that does not happen on earth? And so on.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:45 am

Generally I will not enter into an argument with somebody about their religion... If it makes them happy and encourages ethical behaviour, who am I to argue with them?

If, on the other hand, they use their belief to attack others, especially if the basis for their attack is false, well then I just tear the argument to shreds, without reference to their basic belief though. People are generally unwilling to have their basic beliefs challenged and arguing with them very rarely has a positive outcome.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by kimjihoon5924 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:17 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:30 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:53 am
kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
I have been annoyed by some Protestant Koreans numerously lately, most of them somehow found out I have taken refuge in BuddhaDharma and they are starting to message me that "Buddhism is satanic religion", "You should not follow such teachings as god is one, and he condemns such ludicrousness". They usually tackle me on the fact that all Buddhists are idolizing the false god, the 'Buddha', idolizing golden statues and praying. Even if I try to explain to them that Buddhists are not praying to Buddha, but showing respect for him and taking refuge in the Dharma, they don't listen and continues insulting. What should I do? Sometimes my compassion for them disappears and only hatred is left. Please guide me, my Buddhist brothers and sisters. :namaste:
I tell people that I don't discuss my religion with strangers and casual acquaintances, and similarly, I am not interested in the religious opinions of strangers and casual acquaintances (except on this forum of course, lol)). If I was, I'd ask them what they thought.
I suspect the antagonism of Christians towards to Buddhist in S.Korea might be worse than in USA in some respect,due to the fervour of Christian missionaries in that country.
Oh yes, Protestantism in South Korea is very aggressive, totally opposite to Catholicism in South Korea. There was a case where a Korean pastor went into a Buddhist temple and demolished Shakyamuni Buddha's statue using an axe, after that he proudly infiltrated a Catholic church during midnight and urinated on Mary's statue. I simply cannot describe how much Protestantism in South Korea is hostile in just one reply. These pictures explain all.
http://www.ibulgyo.com/news/photo/20160 ... 77_428.JPG http://www.gimhaesinmun.co.kr/news/phot ... 09_490.jpg
http://www.bulgyofocus.net/news/photo/2 ... 9_4414.jpg

kimjihoon5924
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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by kimjihoon5924 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:27 pm

This video explains Korean Extremist Protestantism to a certain point, subtitles in english are available just click the subs button.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:47 pm

What about just ignoring them?

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:51 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
Are they family members? If not, yes just ignore them. Those people in that video are a cult, stay away from them.
In this degenerate age, right conduct and pure mind are difficult to maintain. Don't be to hard on yourself, try your best. Know that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas will always embrace all beings, just as they are.
-Ramblings of an idiot.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by kimjihoon5924 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:04 pm

South Korea's religious situation is interesting because Catholics in Korea are generally passive and friendly with Buddhism but Protestantism has been hostile on Buddhism, Catholicism, Won Buddhism, Confucianism etc (They even protested against the S.Korean gov to boycott Confucian rituals), Protesting aggressively to not allow Pope Francis and HH Dalai Lama's visiting South Korea. Catholicism and Buddhism's friendly ties can be traced back to the Joseon Dynasty (1392-1592), after the fall of the prominent Buddhist Dyansty, Goryeo Dynasty (918-1392), Joseon was founded after General Yi Seonggye (He was an extremely devout Buddhist) staged a successful coup but Joseon was entirely founded on a Confucian basis and principles due to Ming (Chinese) influences, as a result, despite King Taejo (Yi Seonggye)'s faith in Buddhism, due to all aristocrats and bureaucrats being Confucian forced the Royal House to oppress monks, forcing them out of the capital Hanseong (Modern day Seoul). Many temples were burnt and monks were de-ranked to that of a peasant (Monks were treated very well during the Goryeo Dynasty, abbots were appointed tutors for the royals, in some cases monks held greater power than the monarch). Korean Buddhism during Joseon-era suffered tremendously. Catholic missionaries started to visit the Joseon Dynasty during the 19th century (China already had quite a number of missionaries and churches as Chinese Emperors were quite lenient on Christianity), During the 19th century, Korea was famous for being a 'hermit-nation', therefore she was always felt insecure about foreign culture flowing into Joseon,as a result there were tensions between Korea's central government and foreign missionaries, and then the Byong-in Incident happened, where 8000 Korean catholics and 9 French missionaries were beheaded (This has led to French campaigns against Joseon Korea later on). During the oppression Korean monks allowed foreign missionaries and Korean catholics to take refuge in temples (Korean monks felt great sympathy for the Catholics as they were oppressed for 400 years.) :D Sorry for the LONG HISTORY, so anyways, this is the reason why Catholics and Buddhists maintain friendly ties in S.Korea as they both went through hard times. Korean monks visit Catholic churches on Christmas to congratulate Jesus' birth and Catholic priests do the same on Shakyamuni Buddha's birthday.

kimjihoon5924
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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by kimjihoon5924 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:09 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:51 pm
kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
Are they family members? If not, yes just ignore them. Those people in that video are a cult, stay away from them.
They operate nation-wide, in subways, on streets, parks everywhere. It becomes quite difficult to ignore them when I have to face them every day. Usually I hide my wrist-mala when I encounter them as they sometimes notice it and start bothering me. At times I tell them I am also a Protestant in order to avoid sparking tension at all. The funny thing is, they ask me which church I go to, and if I name a different church from theirs, they start telling me that their church is better, god loves them more talking non-stop. Hehe, so the best is if I don't go out and meditate in my house :meditate: I try my best to keep reminding myself of compassion and the fact that they are just extremists who don't practice true Protestant Christianity, that helps too.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:14 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
What should I do?
Stop thinking that Buddhism needs to be defended from insults? Let them think what they want to think and let that be the end of it. For example, if they say "You should not follow such teachings, buddhism is evil!" then say "Ok, thank you for your concern".
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by kimjihoon5924 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:15 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:14 pm
kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
What should I do?
Stop thinking that Buddhism needs to be defended from insults? Let them think what they want to think and let that be the end of it. For example, if they say "You should not follow such teachings, buddhism is evil!" then say "Ok, thank you for your concern".
That would be quite a good solution too.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:53 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
I have been annoyed by some Protestant Koreans numerously lately ...
Tell them to f off?

Kidding. Kind of.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by DGA » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:53 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:55 am
Maybe I should just politely refuse to react when they try to criticise.
This is an excellent idea.

It also may help to remember that everyone who is criticizing you has the capacity to become a Buddha himself or herself, and therefore these people deserve your respect. There's a chapter in the Lotus Sutra on the Bodhisattva who Never Disparages that I have found inspiring and helpful in situations like yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad%C4%81paribh%C5%ABta

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:09 pm

A Christian friend once wrote me a lengthy message about going to hell when she found out I'm married to another man. The intention is as important as the message sometimes. With her I could tell she had some sense of concern for me from within her set of beliefs which is wholesome. So I thanked her for that and said we have in common a desire to "be our brother's keeper". There isn't much else to say in a situation like that. I try to remember that when proselytizers come around too.

Now if someone has religious pride or ill will towards others, those will be the very causes of their future unhappiness, even while they openly reject the potential cause of their liberation. These things can rouse compassion in us and strengthen our aspiration to save all beings. At the very least it's a golden opportunity to work on patience and equanimity among hostility.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Jeff H » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:11 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
Sometimes my compassion for them disappears and only hatred is left.
I think you have correctly identified the core problem with this sentence.

I agree with those who recommend not engaging with them. You will not convert them or even soften their fanatical positions. Frankly, the whole situation sounds like a potentially serious threat for all non-evangelicals. The most important thing, IMHO, is to internalize it for yourself: how can you use this significant problem to advance your own Dharma path?

I don’t know what your practice is, but I think if I was faced with this I’d try to work on lojong, mind training, such as deeply reflecting on Shantideva’s sixth chapter in The Way of the Bodhisattva, and Langri Thangpa's Eight Verses for Training the Mind. Many of us read those texts, but few actually have this kind of situation to practice them in. I, personally, don’t know how I would do it, but you sound like someone who could. The most important thing is your reactions, internally.

One thing to keep in mind is, why are they doing this? This is their version of “freeing all beings from suffering”. Buddhism takes a more inwardly directed route, but evangelicals want to aggressively bring us all into their fold for our own good. Therefore, use your religious tenets to combat theirs, not in debate but in practice. Try to remember that they are doing this out of what they consider to be Christian love for you, so you must strive to respond with Buddhist love for them. And that means genuinely thanking them for their concern but using their negative behavior to optimize your own path to liberation in order to gain the wisdom to help liberate them.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:12 pm

kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:55 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:53 am
kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
I have been annoyed by some Protestant Koreans numerously lately, most of them somehow found out I have taken refuge in BuddhaDharma and they are starting to message me that "Buddhism is satanic religion", "You should not follow such teachings as god is one, and he condemns such ludicrousness". They usually tackle me on the fact that all Buddhists are idolizing the false god, the 'Buddha', idolizing golden statues and praying. Even if I try to explain to them that Buddhists are not praying to Buddha, but showing respect for him and taking refuge in the Dharma, they don't listen and continues insulting. What should I do? Sometimes my compassion for them disappears and only hatred is left. Please guide me, my Buddhist brothers and sisters. :namaste:
I tell people that I don't discuss my religion with strangers and casual acquaintances, and similarly, I am not interested in the religious opinions of strangers and casual acquaintances (except on this forum of course, lol)). If I was, I'd ask them what they thought.
Maybe I should just politely refuse to react when they try to criticise.
If it were me i'd just stop having the conversation, no one is obligated to do that really. It's a juvenile thing "here, let me yell my beliefs at you in an attempt to change you" It may be well-meaning, but if there's no chance of any kind of real conversation on spiritual matters...why bother?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:15 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:30 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:53 am
kimjihoon5924 wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:49 am
I have been annoyed by some Protestant Koreans numerously lately, most of them somehow found out I have taken refuge in BuddhaDharma and they are starting to message me that "Buddhism is satanic religion", "You should not follow such teachings as god is one, and he condemns such ludicrousness". They usually tackle me on the fact that all Buddhists are idolizing the false god, the 'Buddha', idolizing golden statues and praying. Even if I try to explain to them that Buddhists are not praying to Buddha, but showing respect for him and taking refuge in the Dharma, they don't listen and continues insulting. What should I do? Sometimes my compassion for them disappears and only hatred is left. Please guide me, my Buddhist brothers and sisters. :namaste:
I tell people that I don't discuss my religion with strangers and casual acquaintances, and similarly, I am not interested in the religious opinions of strangers and casual acquaintances (except on this forum of course, lol)). If I was, I'd ask them what they thought.
I suspect the antagonism of Christians towards to Buddhist in S.Korea might be worse than in USA in some respect,due to the fervour of Christian missionaries in that country.
It depends on where in the US, we have some of the most fervent missionary types if you to go the right places, i've seen things like red faced man screaming at the top of his lungs into people's faces that "uppity women" were going hell, etc. Where I grew up we had a few people that were basically like a one or two man version of Westboro Baptist church.

Coincidentally, I regularly go to eat at a Korean market where they are trying to proselytize out front, I think the language barrier keeps me safer than my Korean co-diners heh.

I seriously think it's a waste of time to debate such people.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:43 pm

Worth noting as well. Buddhas do not feel insulted or criticized. They have no pride to wound, and their wisdom and compassion are not diminished by the ever-changing opinions of everyday people. They just keep on working to remove obstacles, including views that bind. So ask, who do you have to defend?

Also there is merit in ethical behavior and loving one's neighbor. Rejoicing in this goodness within even proselytizers would bring happiness to you both. Sympathetic joy is one of the Four Immeasurables.

Although there is no point in engaging in religious disputes, we can pray that they (and all beings) will soon not only encounter the Dharma but establish faith in it.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:01 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:43 pm
Worth noting as well. Buddhas do not feel insulted or criticized. They have no pride to wound, and their wisdom and compassion are not diminished by the ever-changing opinions of everyday people. They just keep on working to remove obstacles, including views that bind. So ask, who do you have to defend?

Also there is merit in ethical behavior and loving one's neighbor. Rejoicing in this goodness within even proselytizers would bring happiness to you both. Sympathetic joy is one of the Four Immeasurables.

Although there is no point in engaging in religious disputes, we can pray that they (and all beings) will soon not only encounter the Dharma but establish faith in it.
Although, the bodhisattva vows also give us the duty to defend dharma to the best of our capabilities.

In this situation, filing complaints to the authorities might be the most appropriate thing to do. I don't know how well that would work in S.Korea...
In this degenerate age, right conduct and pure mind are difficult to maintain. Don't be to hard on yourself, try your best. Know that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas will always embrace all beings, just as they are.
-Ramblings of an idiot.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:54 pm

Which Bodhisattva Vow do you have in mind? As far as I know, they are some variation of:

* Beings are numberless, I vow to save them.
* Desires are inexhaustible, I vow to end them.
* Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them.
* Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to embody it.


These all appear to be injunctions on our own cultivation.

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Re: How should I deal with these insults to Buddhism?

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:25 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:54 pm
Which Bodhisattva Vow do you have in mind? As far as I know, they are some variation of:

* Beings are numberless, I vow to save them.
* Desires are inexhaustible, I vow to end them.
* Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them.
* Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to embody it.


These all appear to be injunctions on our own cultivation.
I would say it is an direct implication of aspiring to benefit all beings.

Let's say an extremist evangelicalist harasses you on the street, even if you don't really want to talk to him. The most compasionate thing you can do is call the cops on them, if not they will continue to harass others.
In this degenerate age, right conduct and pure mind are difficult to maintain. Don't be to hard on yourself, try your best. Know that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas will always embrace all beings, just as they are.
-Ramblings of an idiot.

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