Nothing further to seek...

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Anonymous X
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:30 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:45 am
Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.
"Originally there being no moving and nothing to be obtained is called the Buddha-Dharma, the Buddha’s truth. The Buddha- Dharma lies just in walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. Adding even a bit to it is impossible, whereas taking away just a bit is also impossible. Realizing this, you will not waste even the slightest energy. As soon as you estimate it by deliberation to be something marvelous and mysterious, you already have nothing to do with it."
(Eisai: A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 145; emphasis added)
Ok, although perfect here is not being defined as "marvelous and mysterious" but simply "complete, not lacking anything". And when something is complete, then there would be no reason to add something or take something away.
Even if you don't desire it to be some other way, it is neither 'complete' nor 'perfect'. It is just what it is.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:30 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:59 am
It’s rather easy to believe that as Nirvāṇa and samsara are not two, then we have nothing further to seek, that we are already enlightened. You hear that a lot in various forms of modernised Buddhism and other spiritual philosophies - you perfect as you are, there is no need to strive for anything. ‘Lucky is one with nothing further to seek’.
The misleading word here is "perfect". The true nature of life, the universe, and everything is: impermanent, dissatisfying, and impersonal. Those are not exactly the common associations for the word "perfect". What sentient beings love is stability, pleasure, and importance, the very opposites of how things really are. But even though one ceaselessly pursues the illusion of perfection, there is no end to the chase. Therefore, when the real qualities of existence are seen, it is through the relinquishing of the lives long pursuit of perfection that one arrives at aimlessness, the total extinction of seeking. Such peace is attained not because there is anything to gain, nor because there is something to let go, but because it has become clear that life cannot be fixed, that all hopes and fears are utterly baseless and fabricated.
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself. But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?

I was reading about Soyen Shaku recently who as we know practically established Zen in America in the early 20th Century. In response to a letter from a Christian critic of Buddhism, he has this to say:
Now the word Nirvâna means "extinction" and it means the eradication of all evil desires, of all passions, of all egotism, so that the flame of envy, hatred, and lust will have nothing to feed upon. This is the negative side of Nirvâna. The positive side of Nirvâna consists in the recognition of truth. The destruction of evil desires, of envy, hatred, extinction of selfishness implies charity, compassion with all suffering, and a love that is unbounded and infinite. Nirvâna means extinction of lust, not of love; extinction of evil, not of existence; of egotistic craving, not of life.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself. But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?
Bodhicitta is the will to enlightenment, the aspiration to buddhahood, so it comes at the beginning, not at the end. The energy of compassion is what? Do you mean the effort to save all beings?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself. But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?
Bodhicitta arises naturally through the recognition that the source of all suffering is clinging and addiction.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by florin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself. But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?
Bodhicitta arises naturally through the recognition that the source of all suffering is clinging and addiction.

Isnt the recognition a cause, a condition?

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Malcolm
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:16 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself. But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?
Bodhicitta arises naturally through the recognition that the source of all suffering is clinging and addiction.

Isnt the recognition a cause, a condition?
Yes, is that a problem?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by florin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:16 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 pm


Bodhicitta arises naturally through the recognition that the source of all suffering is clinging and addiction.

Isnt the recognition a cause, a condition?
Yes, is that a problem?
I guesss, in the way i understand things, it is.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:36 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:53 pm
The energy of compassion is what?
I don't know what! I just know that it is. It's like you tap into it. You certainly don't invent it, and I don't think you even generate it. It just seems to come through you, or that's how it's always seemed to me.

But, that's OK, that clarifies the point I raised. It's all good. I'm just experiencing hindrances and doubts.

:namaste:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:16 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:12 pm



Isnt the recognition a cause, a condition?
Yes, is that a problem?
I guesss, in the way i understand things, it is.
Yes, because you have a tendency towards sems sde extremism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by florin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:16 pm


Yes, is that a problem?
I guesss, in the way i understand things, it is.
Yes, because you have a tendency towards sems sde extremism.
Whats this extremism you are referring to?
Explain

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Malcolm
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:21 am

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:46 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm


I guesss, in the way i understand things, it is.
Yes, because you have a tendency towards sems sde extremism.
Whats this extremism you are referring to?
Explain
At the time of the basis there is no one or two. However, when buddhas and sentient beings appear, then there is a one and a two, and a three, etc.

People who follow sems sde tend to have extreme views about nonduality. But Dzogchen view is not nondualism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Way-Fun
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Way-Fun » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:31 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:59 am
So why the need for any spiritual practice whatever? Aren't we already enlightened?
Reality is not broken.
There's nothing to fix.
On the other hand,
you have to try a certain amount
before you can fail comprehensively.

florin
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by florin » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:48 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:21 am
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:46 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 pm


Yes, because you have a tendency towards sems sde extremism.
Whats this extremism you are referring to?
Explain
At the time of the basis there is no one or two. However, when buddhas and sentient beings appear, then there is a one and a two, and a three, etc.
And is one two three or whatever is manifesting something other than the basis ?

People who follow sems sde tend to have extreme views about nonduality. But Dzogchen view is not nondualism.
I do not believe i ever maintained that.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:52 am

Way-Fun wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:31 am
On the other hand,
you have to try a certain amount
before you can fail comprehensively.
:twothumbsup:

That is just a great answer.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:30 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:36 pm
I don't know what! I just know that it is.
As an extension to what Malcolm said, it is one of the main points of the buddha-nature teachings that through removing the defilements the buddha qualities appear. In other words, there is nothing else needed but getting rid of the afflictions.

"It is only this One Mind that is Buddha; there is no distinction between Buddhas and sentient beings. However, sentient beings are attached to characteristics and seek outside themselves. Seeking it, they lose it even more. Sending the Buddha in search of the Buddha, grasping the mind with the mind, they may exhaust themselves in striving for an entire eon but will never get it. They do not understand that if they cease their thoughts and end their thinking, the Buddha will automatically be present."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 13; highlight added)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Wayfarer
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Location: Sydney AU

Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:55 am

Thanks for that reference. I feel a definite affinity with the Tathagathagarba teachings. :anjali:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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