Nothing further to seek...

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
White Lotus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:47 am

If theres no practice one cannot attain no realisation. No attainment is a realisation. It is a state of resting in ones non attainment. :meditate:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:15 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:59 am
Astus, which term would you prefer for paramita? I leave it untranslated when talking about them.
I don't really have one.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:34 am

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.
What does it mean to be perfect then?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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seeker242
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by seeker242 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:02 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:34 am
What does it mean to be perfect then?
It could mean "stability, pleasure, etc." like in the previous examples. It could also mean "complete, not lacking anything, etc.". In this context, I think the latter is more appropriate.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

White Lotus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:47 pm

The Prajna-paramita is the most effective of the six paramitas/perfections when seeking truth about the nature of reality. It is the perfection of wisdom or understanding. Understanding comes either from understanding direct perceptions and/or from an understanding intellect. One perceives and then understands. In understanding it can be said that what one understands one is. Like sees like. :pig:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:02 pm

To be perfect is not to be perfect. It is to be 1. 1 is not perfect 1 is just 1. 1 is the root and reason for all things: life, the good, beauty, emptiness etc. The meaning of life is 1. Buddha is 1. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:22 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:17 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:15 am
seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am


Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.

In which case eating meat is also perfect.
If you regard going to hell as no problem, then yea.

Buddha did not teach a diet-based liberation. That would be the Jain school.
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White Lotus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by White Lotus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:22 pm

To know 1 at the lowest level of simplicity is to know 1 at the highest level of complexity. Have we made Buddhism too complicated? Surely every one is equally special whether she be butcher or saint. 1 is just 1. Thats keeping it simple.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:53 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:02 pm
It could mean "stability, pleasure, etc." like in the previous examples. It could also mean "complete, not lacking anything, etc.". In this context, I think the latter is more appropriate.
Are you saying that samsara can be described as stable, pleasurable, and not lacking anything? Those would be the very opposites of impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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KathyLauren
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by KathyLauren » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:26 am

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.
This is a common misunderstanding, similar to saying that we are already enlightened so there is no need to practise.

Samsara and nirvana refer to the same reality. It is called nirvana when seen through eyes that see perfection. It is called samsara when seen through eyes that do not see perfection. You can't call nirvana perfect if you do not see perfection.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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seeker242
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am

Astus wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:53 pm

Are you saying that samsara can be described as stable, pleasurable, and not lacking anything? Those would be the very opposites of impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial.
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Dan74
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:24 am

The root of suffering in the world is in delusion. A liberated bodhisattva experiences spontaneously-arisen compassion for sentient beings caught up in suffering, but not even making sentient beings, does not suffer him/herself.

Such is my understanding.

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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:47 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:26 am
seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.
This is a common misunderstanding, similar to saying that we are already enlightened so there is no need to practise.

Samsara and nirvana refer to the same reality. It is called nirvana when seen through eyes that see perfection. It is called samsara when seen through eyes that do not see perfection. You can't call nirvana perfect if you do not see perfection.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Kathy, here is an excerpt from Bhikkhu Bodhi on this very topic. I can give you the link to the whole essay entitled Dhamma & Non-Duality if you'd like.

'At the peak of the pairs of opposites stands the duality of the conditioned and the Unconditioned: samsara as the round of repeated birth and death wherein all is impermanent, subject to change, and liable to suffering, and Nibbana as the state of final deliverance, the unborn, ageless, and deathless. Although Nibbana, even in the early texts, is definitely cast as an ultimate reality and not merely as an ethical or psychological state, there is not the least insinuation that this reality is metaphysically indistinguishable at some profound level from its manifest opposite, samsara. To the contrary, the Buddha's repeated lesson is that samsara is the realm of suffering governed by greed, hatred, and delusion, wherein we have shed tears greater than the waters of the ocean, while Nibbana is irreversible release from samsara, to be attained by demolishing greed, hatred, and delusion, and by relinquishing all conditioned existence.'

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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:53 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am
Astus wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:53 pm

Are you saying that samsara can be described as stable, pleasurable, and not lacking anything? Those would be the very opposites of impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial.
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.
Somehow, the way you are saying this sounds odd. Complete? meaning it is the same as nirvana? How could that be? I can follow not wanting it to be some other way, but it can never satisfy anything. There must be a continuation of its contemplation, no?

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seeker242
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by seeker242 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:39 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:26 am
seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.
This is a common misunderstanding, similar to saying that we are already enlightened so there is no need to practise.

Samsara and nirvana refer to the same reality. It is called nirvana when seen through eyes that see perfection. It is called samsara when seen through eyes that do not see perfection. You can't call nirvana perfect if you do not see perfection.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
The perfection is seen by one who is no longer seeking. That’s why they are no longer seeking! :)
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Tolya M » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:52 pm

nirvāṇasya ca yā koṭiḥ koṭiḥ saṃsaraṇasya ca |
na tayor antaraṃ kiṃ cit susūkṣmam api vidyate || 20||
I'm far from being a Nagarjuna fan but if he is about Catuskoti then the Dharma has not yet begun but the critical system is simply demonstrated.

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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Anonymous X » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:57 am

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:39 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:26 am
seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:45 am
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.
This is a common misunderstanding, similar to saying that we are already enlightened so there is no need to practise.

Samsara and nirvana refer to the same reality. It is called nirvana when seen through eyes that see perfection. It is called samsara when seen through eyes that do not see perfection. You can't call nirvana perfect if you do not see perfection.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
The perfection is seen by one who is no longer seeking. That’s why they are no longer seeking! :)
Since the seeker is nowhere to be found how can there be either seeking or not seeking? Perfection is something that illusory, a fabrication. It is just an epithet, a literary description for seeing things as they are.

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Minobu
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:45 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:59 am
It’s rather easy to believe that as Nirvāṇa and samsara are not two, then we have nothing further to seek, that we are already enlightened. You hear that a lot in various forms of modernised Buddhism and other spiritual philosophies - you perfect as you are, there is no need to strive for anything. ‘Lucky is one with nothing further to seek’.

But what is the difference between that attitude, and plain old narcissism, which is being in love with yourself? After all it is very popular nowadays to say that self-love is important for our well-being. So why the need for any spiritual practice whatever? Aren't we already enlightened?
when they say you are already enlightened it does not mean that everyone is already enlightened.
in my future i know i am a Buddha..have the three kayas and am very much aware of me in this incarnation.
I practice in order for this to happen, which actually has happened and "IS NOW"...
stop thinking linear ...for that's just an illusion...
it's like Stephen Hawking said something like" I can remember yesterday but why can't i remember tommorrow ?"

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Astus
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.
"Originally there being no moving and nothing to be obtained is called the Buddha-Dharma, the Buddha’s truth. The Buddha- Dharma lies just in walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. Adding even a bit to it is impossible, whereas taking away just a bit is also impossible. Realizing this, you will not waste even the slightest energy. As soon as you estimate it by deliberation to be something marvelous and mysterious, you already have nothing to do with it."
(Eisai: A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 145; emphasis added)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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seeker242
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Re: Nothing further to seek...

Post by seeker242 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:45 am

Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.
"Originally there being no moving and nothing to be obtained is called the Buddha-Dharma, the Buddha’s truth. The Buddha- Dharma lies just in walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. Adding even a bit to it is impossible, whereas taking away just a bit is also impossible. Realizing this, you will not waste even the slightest energy. As soon as you estimate it by deliberation to be something marvelous and mysterious, you already have nothing to do with it."
(Eisai: A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 145; emphasis added)
Ok, although perfect here is not being defined as "marvelous and mysterious" but simply "complete, not lacking anything". And when something is complete, then there would be no reason to add something or take something away.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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