Our Karma or theirs?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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tomschwarz
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Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:21 am

Hello friends,

Muni mentioned a popular quote "how others act is their karma, not ours. How we act is ours". This is a wonderful invitation not to worry or even be affected so much by the negative actions of others, as well as an invitaiton to take responsibility for our actions.

So then how did we get here (as adults)? We see that a great deal of our personality and in particular our conflicted mental states relate to negative actions of others that we experienced in our childhood. So how to resolve the two ideas: 1) others bring us down and 2) our karma does not directly relate to the actions of others but rather to our own actions?

For discussion, I would like to suggest that the goals of all (?) world religions include the ideal of uncondiational love, disconnecting the actions of others from our commitment to ethical action (see Jesus, Bodisatvas, etc..). So when someone is cruel, aggressive, mean, etc... to us, that makes us sad as we open up to their Karma and exchange our peace for their turmoil. But is that OK for you? Is that part of your daily life? How so?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:15 pm

Hello and good day Tom and all,
exchange our peace for their turmoil


One method;
Tonglen practice, also known as “taking and sending,” reverses our usual logic of avoiding suffering and seeking pleasure. In tonglen practice, we visualize taking in the pain of others with every in-breath and sending out whatever will benefit them on the out-breath. In the process, we become liberated from age- old patterns of selfishness. We begin to feel love for both ourselves and others; we begin to take care of ourselves and others.

Tonglen awakens our compassion and introduces us to a far bigger view of reality. It introduces us to the unlimited spaciousness of shunyata (emptiness). By doing the practice, we begin to connect with the open dimension of our being.
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-practice-tonglen/

There are other?
:meditate:

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tomschwarz
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:22 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:21 am
Hello friends,

Muni mentioned a popular quote "how others act is their karma, not ours. How we act is ours". This is a wonderful invitation not to worry or even be affected so much by the negative actions of others, as well as an invitaiton to take responsibility for our actions.

So then how did we get here (as adults)? We see that a great deal of our personality and in particular our conflicted mental states relate to negative actions of others that we experienced in our childhood. So how to resolve the two ideas: 1) others bring us down and 2) our karma does not directly relate to the actions of others but rather to our own actions?

For discussion, I would like to suggest that the goals of all (?) world religions include the ideal of uncondiational love, disconnecting the actions of others from our commitment to ethical action (see Jesus, Bodisatvas, etc..). So when someone is cruel, aggressive, mean, etc... to us, that makes us sad as we open up to their Karma and exchange our peace for their turmoil. But is that OK for you? Is that part of your daily life? How so?
Muni tonglen practice changed my life, showed me the sublime and ancient key to begin to unlock the great marble doors of my ignorance, blocking my subtle mind from the way life really is, without the illusion of self preservation: taking on any and every hateful conflict directly into the center of this empty heart and naturally transforming it, instantaneously, into rainbow breath on their naked bodies.

It is hard to communicate... ...with the relative truth. So much is left out, chopped off, artificially glued together.

So if this thread is hard to understand, or seems incoherent please communicate the same. Does the thread body (first post) make sense? Or does:

separation of my karma and yours - -> my actions are my karma = independence

human development --> dependent origination = interdependence

Unconditional love (tonglen) = resolution of the two above

...seem like a non sequitur?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:32 am

Also though isn't it our karma to see people behave in certain ways, to have certain types of people in our environment and to have them treat us however they do...

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:48 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:32 am
Also though isn't it our karma to see people behave in certain ways, to have certain types of people in our environment and to have them treat us however they do...

Great, that is the discussion. So it could be that way as you wrote fortyeightvows. But lets look at two contrary examples. One is an enlightened being: will permeate all things without descrimination. Another is an innocent child bombed in a war zone.

So what i am suggesting in the first case, is that as we move towards enlightenment, yes attachment goes away, but the conventional truth itself does not go away. So "this" person with "that" negative attitude toward "this" being does not indicate or characterize "that" buddha's karma (which was exausted).

Same idea for the example of a child in a warzone but with karmic traces from past lives. In that case "what you dont know" e.g. negativity, " cant hurt you"
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 am

Also though isn't it our karma to see people behave in certain ways, to have certain types of people in our environment and to have them treat us however they do...
Yes sure, because "they" are seen in that way through own karmic dust. The dependency of own mind-consciousness and its' perception. There is no wall in between. Own karmic view paints what is perceived.
separation of my karma and yours - -> my actions are my karma = independence
The behavior or actions by 'another' of course influences 'our' karma. In same way my behavior will influence as well, therefore better not read what I write. I actually am responsible for my own actions and so as well for others karma, exactly because of the interconnection or interdependence, which plays in nature. That I guess asks awareness, 'not to be an acting slave' by identifying with karmic rubbish inside. And in that way our responsibility.
It goes probably more smoothly when the very heart is open, so to speak.
:meditate:

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:00 pm

However there is no way, another must be seen as being the cause or being responsible for my action through emotional delusions in interaction.

An action with the intention to harm children is not 'my' responsibility. But it is it very much, ( Paramita) in order to do what is possible to stop this harm, for the welfare of victim and perpetrator* ( *also victim of own confusion.)

I mean it is own responsibility to act by carelessness or awareness.

o o
:meditate:

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:00 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:48 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:32 am
Also though isn't it our karma to see people behave in certain ways, to have certain types of people in our environment and to have them treat us however they do...

Great, that is the discussion. So it could be that way as you wrote fortyeightvows. But lets look at two contrary examples. One is an enlightened being: will permeate all things without descrimination. Another is an innocent child bombed in a war zone.

So what i am suggesting in the first case, is that as we move towards enlightenment, yes attachment goes away, but the conventional truth itself does not go away. So "this" person with "that" negative attitude toward "this" being does not indicate or characterize "that" buddha's karma (which was exausted).

Same idea for the example of a child in a warzone but with karmic traces from past lives. In that case "what you dont know" e.g. negativity, " cant hurt you"
Both the enlightened being and the child in your examples, are ideas concocted by you. There's no enlightened being permeating anything, and there's no child in a war zone, both are your creations. Just as my jumping into the conversation to say this, is mine - my experience and creation.

How can we ever divorce ourselves from anything we experience? We always experience everything with ourselves as the center, and everything is necessarily filtered through us, originates with us and our own cherished ideals and concepts.

We seemingly inhabit the same dimension and have shared karma - if we live in NYC and walk from Central Park to Times square, write down the route etc., someone else can follow the directions - but the experience, the good fortune or bad on the trip, the quality, EVERYTHING is a function of our own karma. We couldn't experience Donald Trump without having that Trump Karma, but how we experience it, as well as how we experience anything at all, mundane or Dharma, can be as different (even between humans with similar vision) as to almost challenge the difference between the different realms of beings - Animal, preta vision vs human, for instance.

It's an interesting question, for sure - but when I look at the world and the evil therin, I can certainly see the connection to my own life and way of living. I live in a country that hogs about 1/3 of the worlds natural resources, with a relative wealth and opulence of an emperor, and yet I'm supposed to somehow avoid vision related to warfare & the struggle between rich & poor, the classes?

Just riffin' here, because I find this interesting - but while there's a fine line betwixt Solipsism and what I'm talking about, I think it's pretty obvious that there is nothing in our experience completely independent from our own process and karma - there's precise cause or causes for it.

If Tonglen works, it's not because we are somehow trading our virtue, our happiness etc. for some poor wretch we feel is external, but my feeling is that it works because it opens us up to the connection between us and that vision, and that the compassion generated, whether contrived or arising spontaneously, opens up something in us and increases our understanding of the vision - it all happens in us.

The same thing goes for "enlightenment" or realization. How can we ever have external confirmation of anything of the sort? Even if the Buddha, or your teacher comes and says "that's it, you've got it now!" we are still left with the impossibility of divorcing this from our self.

We have to believe that its really happened, that we can trust our direct perception of this (in the example, I'm not saying this is how realization happens). There is never any mind other than ours that we or anyone can know - Even if there did exist another mind that could somehow be established or proven. How would we know it, this other mind? Still it would come back to our own experience, our own understanding, our own creation.

So to the question - Our Karma. Nowhere to look other than the mirror. For an idea of our past life, look at our present life, for an idea of our future life, look at our present life. I heard that somewhere & thought I'd share.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 am

Drenpa wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:00 am
Both the enlightened being and the child in your examples, are ideas concocted by you. There's no enlightened being permeating anything, and there's no child in a war zone, both are your creations.
I work with refugees from Syria, Iraq, Central Africa, etc... And I can assure you there are children in war zones.

There are two levels of truth: relative and ultimate. That means that although all phenomena are mere appearances, that they lack an intrinsic existence, they still possess a reality, albeit relative and conditioned.
Just riffin' here, because I find this interesting - but while there's a fine line betwixt Solipsism and what I'm talking about
Unfortunately you crossed the line into solipsistic nihilism.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:51 am

There's no enlightened being permeating anything, and there's no child in a war zone, both are your creations. Just as my jumping into the conversation to say this, is mine - my experience and creation.
Language-expressions have limits, I guess. And so apprehended labels we give.
It is perhaps so that we would easier help a cute helpless child and let wait the drunken cursing sailor who peed in his pants. Or a sweet looking puppy and the wounded snake. This due to our karmic vision, and so clinging/grasping. This clinging, and the dividing mind is the problem. Who need first help, would be more appropriate.

Clinging labeling - labeling clinging to solid real ( solid = separate or independent of mind).
‘Our body’, ‘other bodies’, all play in nature of mind and when we can help…(all own lights so to speak.)

( no separation perceiver-perceived).
I find Longchenpa his words regarding ‘all is mind’ helpful: “all things-ones are not mind but no other than.” ( emptiness-dependence inseparability or empty mind-appearances inseparability)

Own creation is through the filter of own karmic view, what grasps/clings.

I work with refugees from Syria, Iraq, Central Africa, etc... And I can assure you there are children in war zones.
H H would say, you are a Bodhisattva, I am only talking about.
:meditate:

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:23 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:00 am
We always experience everything with ourselves as the center, and everything is necessarily filtered through us, originates with us and our own cherished ideals and concepts.
dear drenpa the real American egoist )))) It takes one to know one ))), i know, like the children say, and yes I am one. And first off, well said.

But, thanks to the world religions such as Buddhism that help teach selflessness, I am happy to say that for people like you and I, we do not need to: "always experience everything with ourselves as the center, and our own cherished ideals and concepts." We suffer endless putrid revolutions in the stomach acid of hate desire and fundamental ignorance. But we do not have to carry on like this.

Here are a few choice examples of the alternative to self centered perspective from the Buddhist path (4th noble truth):

Path of seeing. Here in meditation you develop a direct intuitive and non conceptual realization of/that all things are empty. That includes among other things that there is no origination or cessation, no defining characteristics, no increase, no decrease, all things are empty, wishlessness, etc...

Absolute Love. Here we are talking about unconditional warm headedness for all sentient beings. I am one. Do you love me? I love you with my whole heart and wish us both to be eternally freed from the endless suffering resulting from our self gasping. If your heart/mind does not feel warm to you, rethink the plan.

Empathetic joy. One of the four immeasurable sources of happiness. Your high moments of the day come not from anything you do but from others. A childs smile, dance. A young persons realization of the meaning of life. A doctor's correct diagnosis. A Buddhist's discipline to sit and meditate. Etc...
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:28 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 am
Drenpa wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:00 am
Both the enlightened being and the child in your examples, are ideas concocted by you. There's no enlightened being permeating anything, and there's no child in a war zone, both are your creations.
I work with refugees from Syria, Iraq, Central Africa, etc... And I can assure you there are children in war zones.

There are two levels of truth: relative and ultimate. That means that although all phenomena are mere appearances, that they lack an intrinsic existence, they still possess a reality, albeit relative and conditioned.
Just riffin' here, because I find this interesting - but while there's a fine line betwixt Solipsism and what I'm talking about
Unfortunately you crossed the line into solipsistic nihilism.
My dear Grigoris - Of course I don't deny that there are children in war zones in the places you mention. Nor did I say anything about relative or ultimate truth - That's your process going on there. See how this works?

My point was that in the example that the OP concocted to talk about Karma, he made up an example in his mind of this war child and of an enlightened being. In his formulation of this, there is no war child. None was created when he made up this example. Causes and conditions came together in order to express an example, but nothing was created in this instance - relative reality or no.

To create the relative appearance of the war child or enlightened being, other causes and conditions would have to apply.

I'm simply pointing back to the way this whole perception and karma thing works. Your precise experience of war children is aroused when you read this example. It's not my experience. It's not the OP's. It arises in you (with much more weight than someone who only watches such things play out on TV) precisely because that is YOUR karmic vision - to have served people suffering in this way - or the appearance of people if you want to say that - I'm not even saying that. I'm only saying that while relative appearances of enlightened beings appear, as well as children subject to war, that none were created in the making of this analogy. No animals were harmed in the making of the OP's movie. Or yours. Or mine.

This is quite a distinction. It's not mere wordplay.

Of course, if OP travels to a war zone, he will experience (in his own unique way, through his own Karma, capacity, and condition) the cause and effect that manifests to him/her there - but it will still be HIS/HER experience - not something external. It won't be your experience, it won't be mine.

The differences between the relative observers at times, even in the same loka, can almost seems as vast as that between lokas. 6 realms, one water. Certainly we've all experienced a bit of hell vision here in the human realm - but it's OUR hell vision. Or when we go on a nice run and things go our way, it can seem as though we're in the god realm for a time - of course, we're not, we're humans with a much shorter lifespan and decreased capacity for pleasure - so we're not gods - but we can have those aspects manifest as well in our experience.

So nobody slipped into anything here - You're simply making my point about how subjective everything is,more clear. This is why an extreme idea (did you miss that I pointed this out, that of course solipsism is extreme and not dharma?) such as solipsism is useful - it goes too far along the continuum as to be an analog for 'reality' to gauge our own experience against, as we can and must do with Dharma at any level we engage with it - we must always apply to our own experience - we're incapable of doing so for anyone else.

If I say "Grigoris is greek, and greeks can be quite stubborn in my experience" for example, no stubborn greek guy with an Aussie education was created. That's only my perception, my karma. Even if 20 people say the same thing and appear to agree with me - each of us is simply creating name and form and playing with our own karma - nothing is done to the non-existent greek guy we're referring to - The person you are has nothing to do with what I filter through my own biases and senses - that's MY vision.

Capiche? That's all I'm saying - and I think it's not something you need to take my word for - you can see it in your own experience, not just as an idea but what is actually happening when we look at experience - None of us are wired that differently. which is why this is something interesting and not just another ideas to be bashed about between moving goal posts.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:58 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:23 pm
Drenpa wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:00 am
We always experience everything with ourselves as the center, and everything is necessarily filtered through us, originates with us and our own cherished ideals and concepts.

dear drenpa the real American egoist )))) It takes one to know one ))), i know, like the children say, and yes I am one. And first off, well said.
Never said I didn't have a well formed ego and I make no apologies for it. I haven't made any claims to anything, other than what can be readily observed for myself. I think y'all have taken my statement as typical crypto advaita psychobabble so popular in so called "non-dual" writings these days, replete with scare quotes and nonsense that would make Trump and his lawyers proud. Like "...there is no "me" in the first place, so there is nobody that just treated you like an a$$hole, and no you who suffered it..." blah blah blah. I don't think that the idea that every single thing we experience is our own vision and by extension, related to our own karma is anything particularly revolutionary. This is in no way a denial of cause and effect, dependent origination or anything else.
But, thanks to the world religions such as Buddhism that help teach selflessness, I am happy to say that for people like you and I, we do not need to: "always experience everything with ourselves as the center, and our own cherished ideals and concepts." We suffer endless putrid revolutions in the stomach acid of hate desire and fundamental ignorance. But we do not have to carry on like this.
Please speak only for yourself, friend.
Here are a few choice examples of the alternative to self centered perspective from the Buddhist path (4th noble truth):

Path of seeing. Here in meditation you develop a direct intuitive and non conceptual realization of/that all things are empty. That includes among other things that there is no origination or cessation, no defining characteristics, no increase, no decrease, all things are empty, wishlessness, etc...
You've completely lost me here. I honestly don't understand what your ideas about the path of seeing, or any other precept have to do with what we're discussing. I never for a second said that my experience is not self centered. In fact, I experience everything in my life with myself at the center. I see through my eyes, not yours, and certainly not through anything you've said about "alternative to self-centered perception".

Precisely how do you propose that I see something without myself as the reference point? If I see something, there is of necessity the other pole that appears immediately - My perception of it. Full stop. Take away myself seeing it, and there is nothing to be seen. (at least not by me, from my perspective as the actor, as the center of the (my) universe. This is my direct experience. There is no way I could experience something else.
Absolute Love. Here we are talking about unconditional warm headedness for all sentient beings. I am one. Do you love me? I love you with my whole heart and wish us both to be eternally freed from the endless suffering resulting from our self gasping. If your heart/mind does not feel warm to you, rethink the plan.
Again, not sure how this relates. Your ideas and experience of absolute loveTM is yours. If you have a powerful experience of love for all sentient beings, me included, and you have the noble aspiration that you and all other beings are freed etc. then that's awesome - Who am I to say yeah or nay? But let's be clear - that's your experience. Those are your projections and ideas, not mine. I may appear in your experience, but you are at the center, and I'm at the periphery of that mandala.
Empathetic joy. One of the four immeasurable sources of happiness. Your high moments of the day come not from anything you do but from others. A childs smile, dance. A young persons realization of the meaning of life. A doctor's correct diagnosis. A Buddhist's discipline to sit and meditate. Etc...
Once again - you're taking a precept/idea "four immeasurable sources" or whatever, and that is a karmic filter for YOUR experience of this whole deal. I assure you, that my experience on this side, is different. I have different karma, capacity and conditions. Not higher, not lower, just different.

Again - this is germane to dependent origination. I'm not saying that I don't feel pain when I stub my toe. Or that if I mistreat some being that there won't be karmic repercussions that affect me, and the experience of that being. But the fact is, at least in light of all of the experiences I've had in this life, I feel pain when I stub my toe.

I don't feel it when you do. When I see you stub your toe, I have an idea about the process of stubbing a toe, I can empathize for you, maybe even if I were a great practitioner I could physically feel your pain and somehow ease it, but that would still all be MY experience.

My ideas about it, my experience along any spectrum of merely noticing to being fixated upon it are still mine.

You speaking of children at war in this moment, does not create anything on the side of the children who really are live in war zones in this world. Their karma is not yours, although there is some shared karma and vision, related to war and strife - as you experience it second hand (first hand if you're Greg) and have part in it, can talk about it, empathize etc. and have your own experience as a result - but you are not the war child, and nothing new is created by your experience of it - it's simply shared karma - same stick different ends in this case. The end that is the same for each of us, is the one we hold.

Wow. Most words ever to clarify something I thought was obvious.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:44 am

Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:28 am
My dear Grigoris - Of course I don't deny that there are children in war zones in the places you mention. Nor did I say anything about relative or ultimate truth - That's your process going on there. See how this works?
Yes, I see how you think it works. You seem to be saying that there is no reality apart from one's subjective experience.

Do you know how experience/perception works in Buddhist models of mind? Are you aware of the universal mental factor of phassa/sparśa (contact)?

Are you aware of the concept of Indra's net?

What about the fact that dependent origination functions based on causes and conditions?

Yes, experience is coloured by personal karma, but that does not mean there is only personal experience.
No animals were harmed in the making of the OP's movie. Or yours. Or mine.
And yet if I think about slaughter houses the thought is based on my (and other's) experience of slaughter houses and animals were (and are being) hurt in the making of that particular movie. Relative reality and truth, is a reality and a truth.

Now if we were to talk about wholly imaginary phenomena (like Donald Trump's brain, for example) maybe then it would be a completely subjective experience for each person but still, even this conception would be based on shared experiences/perceptions. If you did not know what a brain is, who Donald Trump is, what a lack of brain entails, well, you wouldn't understand me, would you? So there is definitely something shared there. It is not entirely subjective.
Of course, if OP travels to a war zone, he will experience (in his own unique way, through his own Karma, capacity, and condition) the cause and effect that manifests to him/her there - but it will still be HIS/HER experience - not something external. It won't be your experience, it won't be mine.
Goes without saying. Does not support your point though because I have yet to meet somebody from a war zone that was not traumatised by the experience in one way or another.
If I say "Grigoris is greek, and greeks can be quite stubborn in my experience" for example, no stubborn greek guy with an Aussie education was created. That's only my perception, my karma.
Actually, no, becuase I can assure you there is a stubborn Greek sitting here typing this message.
...each of us is simply creating name and form...
Do you have a scriptural source for this idea of yours that we crate name and form?
...not just as an idea...
Seems to me that you are saying that everything is just an idea.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:44 am
Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:28 am
My dear Grigoris - Of course I don't deny that there are children in war zones in the places you mention. Nor did I say anything about relative or ultimate truth - That's your process going on there. See how this works?
Yes, I see how you think it works. You seem to be saying that there is no reality apart from one's subjective experience.
You'd have to willfully misread what I took great pains to (unsuccessfully obviously) speak to. I never said anything of the sort.
Do you know how experience/perception works in Buddhist models of mind? Are you aware of the universal mental factor of phassa/sparśa (contact)?

Are you aware of the concept of Indra's net?

What about the fact that dependent origination functions based on causes and conditions?
Sigh. Really?
Yes, experience is coloured by personal karma,....
Thank you. That wasn't so hard now, was it?
...but that does not mean there is only personal experience.
You're the only one who's harping on this. I never said that there was only personal experience. That's your straw man.

I did point out, however, that my experience (can't speak of yours) goes beyond simply being colored by personal karma - I feel that my personal karma is a filter/limitation/condition that informs every single aspect of my experience. Coloring doesn't go far enough, but mind-only, solipsism goes too far.

Let me ask you though since you formulated the following "...but that does not mean there is only personal experience."

If there is something other than personal experience, as you imply above, what does that look like?

I've personally never had a trans-personal experience, or somehow had an experience that wasn't mine. Maybe this is possible, but it's not within the realm of my experience.

I'm always there having the experience myself. If I envision an experience happening somewhere else on the furthest exoplanet I can imagine, or if I had eyes of wisdom and could somehow see what was happening elsewhere, how would that be separate from MY experience? Or yours, if it was you?

You're hard-pressed to convince anyone who thinks about it a little, that there is some kind of non-personal experience. What would that look like? Who would experience it? All experience has a personal component because it's rooted in subject/object dualism.

The various traditions, Buddhism included, speak of going beyond subject/object, and entering into knowledge. If this happens, then we are hard pressed to use any conventional language to discuss or convey the experience (although this is the purview of all scripture) but that is why there is not what we were discussing here - we were discussing normal perception and ideas of war children / enlightened beings and relative karma - squarely in the land of afflicted entities.

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Grigoris
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:11 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:27 pm
If there is something other than personal experience, as you imply above, what does that look like?
Non-conceptual experience. Experience that is not self-centered. Like a Buddha, for example.
I've personally never had a trans-personal experience, or somehow had an experience that wasn't mine. Maybe this is possible, but it's not within the realm of my experience.
Too bad. It explains why you keep trying to sell subjectivism as Buddhism.
The various traditions, Buddhism included, speak of going beyond subject/object, and entering into knowledge. If this happens, then we are hard pressed to use any conventional language to discuss or convey the experience (although this is the purview of all scripture)
If you want to confuse the finger for the moon, well, that is your problem really. Doesn't mean the finger is the moon though.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:04 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:58 am
. I may appear in your experience, but you are at the center, and I'm at the periphery of that mandala.
Are you sure? Why? I feel that you are at the center of my experience. ...like your idea about Trump and his lawyers communication style, "a good run", central park/nyc, everything one percieves being subject to one's perception, feeling lost, feeling found...

I was told by a Buddhist monk that my mind itself has no center and no edge. Do you agree with that? Why?

Imagine this... if it is true that your mind has no center or edge and mine too has no center or edge, aren't they by definition sharing space?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:24 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:11 pm
Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:27 pm
If there is something other than personal experience, as you imply above, what does that look like?
Non-conceptual experience. Experience that is not self-centered. Like a Buddha, for example.
I've personally never had a trans-personal experience, or somehow had an experience that wasn't mine. Maybe this is possible, but it's not within the realm of my experience.
Too bad. It explains why you keep trying to sell subjectivism as Buddhism.
The various traditions, Buddhism included, speak of going beyond subject/object, and entering into knowledge. If this happens, then we are hard pressed to use any conventional language to discuss or convey the experience (although this is the purview of all scripture)
If you want to confuse the finger for the moon, well, that is your problem really. Doesn't mean the finger is the moon though.
Okay. I'm finished discussing this as your characterization that I'm selling anything, or I'm somehow representing as Dharma what I clearly and painstakingly stated were my own observations, are not in the spirit of friendship or fellowship.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:59 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:04 pm
Drenpa wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:58 am
. I may appear in your experience, but you are at the center, and I'm at the periphery of that mandala.
Are you sure? Why? I feel that you are at the center of my experience. ...like your idea about Trump and his lawyers communication style, "a good run", central park/nyc, everything one percieves being subject to one's perception, feeling lost, feeling found...

I was told by a Buddhist monk that my mind itself has no center and no edge. Do you agree with that? Why?

Imagine this... if it is true that your mind has no center or edge and mine too has no center or edge, aren't they by definition sharing space?
Hiya Tom,

Well, I can't be sure of your experience. If you feel that I'm at the center while you engage with me, I guess I'll have to leave it to you to distinguish. I was saying that in my experience, I'm at the center of my mandala, and experience everything else from that perspective. My comments on Karma (which is what this thread is about) and your question as to "ours", or "theirs" were what motivated my comment(s). This discussion was squarely rooted in the relative world which we normally inhabit, and I my comments were based on this perspective and my own observations of my process.

To conflate that with non-dual experience, for lack of a better term, is to miss the mark. If one is really able to enter into knowledge, direct perception of rigpa, george, whatever one wishes to call it, then fine. If that's the case then one is beyond cause and effect, karma, and subject and object. So there's nothing to be said about it, until samsara begins anew upon "re-entry" for lack of a better term, to dualism. I spend most of my time in this realm, can't speak for you or anyone else.

Anything that can be observed, experienced, characterized or explained is of necessity within the realm of duality. By definition, and in practice. You can call going beyond duality an "experience" but that's only a convention. A non-dual state is by definition without any reference point.

So to your comment about the monk who said that mind has no center or edge - I can dig it - If mind is non-local and infinite, then there can be nothing outside of it. No other mind. But this isn't Buddhism as I understand it - this is Advaita - one without a second - and the idea that there is only one mind, like there is only one sun which can be reflected in a million mud-puddles or lakes across the globe. The analogy I'm comfortable with as Dharma is oil in a sesame seed.

But this is all mostly useless to me, really unless I have stable knowledge and non-dual experience. Maybe you do. I don't. I've had experiences, but experience is not stability. It's still in the realm of dualism. If I had real stability in non-duality I'd be able to bang on space or hide from the rain in a horn, like a mahasiddha.

Also, it's completely beside the point as we were discussing karma and how our individual perception is (for me at least) the main factor dictating experience when I look at my process.

THAT I find empowering. If it's my karma and process, then I can do something about it on the relative level where I actually live and experience. I can't do much with an experience had by someone else, as it's not my direct experience and something I'm familiar with until it's filtered through my own mind - which is different than yours, at least in my experience.

Thanks for being kind and civil.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:28 am

Drenpa wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:24 am
Okay. I'm finished discussing this as your characterization that I'm selling anything, or I'm somehow representing as Dharma what I clearly and painstakingly stated were my own observations, are not in the spirit of friendship or fellowship.
It would be just as easy for you to admit that your observations are wrong and move on, but if this works better for you as an ego defence mechanism, well... :tongue: Indignant outrage is always a good one. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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